On 03 Jan 2014, at 12:45, Richard Ruquist wrote:
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 02 Jan 2014, at 23:00, Jason Resch wrote:
snip
Okay, and I can agree with this in some respects. If the first
person view is the view of a computation, then the computation has
an ordered sequence of states. Although Bruno has also claimed to
have had a conscious experience without time. Maybe this is the
result of some computation stuck in a loop? I'd be interested in
hearing his own thoughts on it.
Hmm.... Normally we are not supposed to refer to personal
experience, but once in a while ... Why not. Of course you allude
here to a statement I made concerning some salvia experiences.
Note that some people dismisses non validly such experience, *even
from the 1p view*, because they think it is an hallucination ... and
that's all.
I have recently succeeded, by using a metaphor, in explaining, that
from the 1p point of of view, an experience can lead to a genuine
change of view, and invalidate the dismissive tenet for the 1p view.
Imagine a world where everyone see on the black and white. No
colors. Imagine that in that world, some people using some drugs do
perceive color. Then when they come back they try to explain the
experience, and of course, as the experience is short elusive and
does not allow testing, they cannot do so. Yet in that case we can
understand that dismissing such experience as an hallucination is in
direct opposition with the experience itself, from the 1p view. They
do have lived something that they were unable to conceive before the
experience. There is a genuine learning or discovery.
That is like I feel after some salvia experience, notably concerning
the experience of timeless consciousness. I would have swore that
such an experience cannot make any sense, even in an hallucination,
yet, with some amount of salvia, the experience does make some
sense, but remains 1p and completely impossible to described.
Can it be a computational loop? Not really because this will still
be lived as dynamical by the 1p, unless perhaps the loop is
infinitesimal: hard to say. Or is it that consciousness doesn't
really need a time frame to be experienced? That contradict
apparently the S4Grz (third hypostase, the arithmetical 1p) which,
like in Brouwer's theory of consciousness, links deeply
consciousness and subjective time (knowledge evolution).
So: I don't know. I don't even know how to refer to such an
experience which is out of time. Its duration seems to last both 0
seconds, and eternity, after. It just looks totally impossible ...
in the mundane state of consciousness. It seems impossible, even as
an hallucination. It boggles me in the infinite. It does give a sort
of feeling that arithmetical truth might be a sort of conscious
'person' after all, and that comp might be even more closer to
"religion" than what the simple machine's theology can suggest.
Maybe that is why some people says that salvia is a medication which
cures ... atheism. It does not make you believe in something, but,
like comp+ logic, it seems to generalize the dream argument, that is
a root for doubting even more (and that is probably why most people
find salvia quite disturbing and decide to never do it again). I
need further explorations ...
Bruno,
From your salvia experience, it sounds to me that comp is inherently
dynamic
From inside. From the first person points of view of the self-aware
arithmetical creatures (the relative universal numbers, or the Löbian
one).
and that zero time is equivalent to zero comp.
This is unclear. What do you mean?
Ah, you explain below.
That is, if time is not increasing or changing, then there are no
computations happening. It's a static block universe.
Is that possible?
The only "time" needed for the notion of computation is the successor
relation on the non negative integers. It is not a physical time, as
it is only the standard ordering of the natural numbers: 0, 1, 2, 3,
etc.
So, the 3p "outer structure" is very simple, conceptually, as it is
given by the standard structure, known to be very complex,
mathematically, of the additive/multiplicative (and hybrids of course)
structure of the numbers (or any object-of-talk of a universal numbers).
That is indeed a quite "static" structure (and usually we don't
attribute consciousness to that type of thing, but salvia makes some
(1p alas) point against this).
Now, both consciousness (at least the mundane one) and the dynamics
appears in the logical arithmetical (but not necessarily computable)
ways a machine, or a relative universal number, can prove (Bp) , infer
(Bp & Dt) , know (Bp & p), observe (Bp & Dt & p), feel (Bp & Dt & p)
themselves relatively to their most probable computations.
You can perhaps consider that all errors in *philosophy* consists in a
confusion between two of those "number's points of view".
I would even say that the *theological* errors comes from confusion
between those points of view, and their "star extension", when
translated in G*.
Incompleteness not only forces the division between truth and
provable, captured by the star extensions, but it forbids to the
correct or sound machine/numbers to confuse the hypostases.
Subjective time appears in Bp & p, and in Bp & p & Dt, (and in B^n
p & p & D^m t. If n < m, then we get a corresponding quantization, so
the arithmetical quantizations are graded, and I hope to find some
arithmetical Temperley Algebra there ..., that would be a path in the
explanation of some physical space)
Physical time? Open problem.
The 3p is a block reality, which does not even refer to any notion of
time or space, or consciousness, or whatever.
But from the average 1p discourses of machines relatively implemented
(in the computer science sense) in that arithmetical reality, taking
into account the FPI (by the "& Dt", actually) and the first person
(and its umbilical link with truth, by the "& p") you can see or
understand that from inside things are quite dynamical, and full of
sense. The consciousness of the sense might be a semantical fixed
point. Universal numbers are windows through which the Arithmetical
Reality can explore Itself. The price is that it can lost itself and
get tricked in infinitely many ways.
To sum up the 3p reality is certainly a sort of block reality, but the
many 1p realities, naturally associated to the 3p arithmetization of
meta-arithmetic (Gödel) and its Theaetetus variants (the points of
view), are dynamical, and full of qualia (accepting standard
properties of them).
Strangely salvia suggests that the 3p reality might have a universal
1p itself, which makes not much sense to me though, but if that was
the case, the "whole truth" would plausibly be the initial
consciousness capable of differentiating through the infinitely many
universal numbers windows. I am not sure of that. It would make a
brain really more a filter of consciousness than a realizer of
consciousness. I am still struggling on this. I made allusion to this
with the notion of Galois connection, which exists between theories
and models, name and things, equation/surface, 3p-body/1p-person, etc.
What is sure, even provable and proved by machines like PA or ZF, is
that there are many Löbian entities, much closer to truth than
themselves, which might in some circumstances quite well approximate
Truth, in a way "faking" all machines. An example is "true in all
transitive models of ZF" (a model is transitive if it owns all the
elements of its sets). Using comp, and working on simple correct
machines, we can extract a lot from mathematical logic.
Bruno
Richard
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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