On 01 Mar 2014, at 10:15, LizR wrote:
On 1 March 2014 21:03, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 01 Mar 2014, at 02:06, LizR wrote:
On 1 March 2014 03:22, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 26 Feb 2014, at 03:31, LizR wrote:
Indeed. I have mentioned at times that if you accept "Yes Doctor"
the rest of comp follows. Which I realise isn't quite true,
? You might elaborate on this. What is the "rest", and why do you
think it does not follow?
I mean the rest as I understand it. "Yes Doctor" implies that
identity relies on a "capsule memory", and hence that H=M and H=W,
and also that H=simulated M / W, H = M+100 years, and so on.
That is not so clear to me.
OK. That is my take on it, which may be based on intuition or
misunderstanding. But it seems to me the idea of "Yes Doctor" - that
you could have your brain replaced by a digital equivalent and not
know the difference - is only possible if all the other things you
mention are, too. How would "Yes Doctor" work? You'd have to have
your brain frozen (or something similar), scanned and destroyed,
while the digital one was programmed to be a simulation of your
brain (below the substitution level). And from your own perspective
you would fall asleep on the operating table and wake up with a
digital brain (and maybe a robot body). That's only possible (it
seems to me) if your continuation of consciousness from day to day
is discontinuous in a similar manner.
That's correct.
Otherwise in "Yes Doctor" you would die, and a replica would be
created.
So, the time of the reconstitution and the modality of the modus
operandi is not relevant. And, so we don't need to make precise the
"other hypothesis", and the use of simple "instantaneous"
teleportation is valid.
But this is explicitly clear in step seven, which "technically" are
"step 5" like, which means you don't need to be frozen and
annihilated, you need just to be "prepared or reconstituted" in the
concrete UD
which do the rest automatically, even infinitely often. In longer and
more detailed version of the UDA (like the one in 15 steps done on
this list at its early beginning) I make this explicit. So you point,
even if correct for steps 0-6, does not apply on steps 0-7, and of
course still less to step 0-8.
Similarly after classical teleportation, where you are destroyed and
recreated, you only come out at the other end as the same person if
that's what consciousness - if it's "Heralicitean", so to speak. But
if that is the case, then you can be teleported, cloned, and so on -
not to mention kidnapped (or 50% kidnapped) by someone able to scan
your brain at some point without destroying it and recreating you in
their own private digital world.
OK. That follows again from step 5 and step 7, automatically, and this
entails the reversal.
That's why it seems if you accept "Yes Doctor", everything else (the
other steps) have to follow, because you have already accepted what
we might as well call the Heraclitean nature of consciousness.
OK.
Of course I define comp by "yes doctor" + Church's thesis.
That is why I realise it isn't quite true that YD implies
everything, because you need CT and AR.
But you just said that "1+1=2" is a fact, which is stronger than AR.
AR just says that 1+1=2, and nothing more. And CT is not really
needed in the math: just add Turing before machine or universal
number. But CT makes things smooth and prevent uninteresting critics
like "and what if we are not Turing emulable, but still "machines"
in some unknonw sense.
That was in another thread! I was making a suggestion about "where
the maths comes from". I don't necessarily assume that when talking
about comp.
Well, you were saying that not everything follows from YD, which is
comp. CT is just needed to give "comp" a (general) sense, and AR is
only the belief that 17 is prime "independent of you".
Also, I suspect that you have a stronger meaning of "fact" in mind.
What is the difference betwen asserting that 1+1=2 (like AR) and
saying that 1+1=2 is a fact, like I did? (I suspect the difference
is something like Bp vs p except I beleive B means believing ...)
Because "1+1=2" is elementary math, learned in high school.
" "1+1=2" is a fact " is a non trivial philosophical statement, which
involved a non trivial notion like "fact". I have seen people
discussing ad nauseam on what is a fact, and some philosopher would
not agree that elementary arithmetical statement can be considered as
fact.
(Bp is more "I believe in "1+1=2", or I can justify that 1+1=2).
But if you accept the Doctor's offer then you are committing to a
"capsule theory of identity" which implies most of what you have
said about duplication experiments with delays, VR, and so on.
OK. I would say "relative (to universal numbers) capsule theory of
identity".
I'm not sure I understand, what would be the alternative capsule
theory (i.e. one that isn't relative to universal numbers?)
Because the state that the doctor put on some disk has a sense only
relatively to the possible state of some other universal system.
In fact any number might defined your actual state relatively to
*some* universal system, itself making sense thanks to the local
"physical laws", for example. A number by itself does not refer to a
computational state, you need at least two numbers, or you need to fix
the base system, or to make precise the UD you work with. The notion
of computational state is relative. OK?
When everything is reduced to arithmetic, we have to take into account
this "relativity of relativity".
Bruno
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