Thanks, Bruno- My point is that yes as Mourjani, nobody who as been revived and claims to have had these experiences, comes back, urging more bloodlust, and slaughter. Everyone appears emotionally changed by what the feel they experienced, whether a hallucination or not. The God's name thing I comprehend, as when humans try to take on the "God" thing as a means of rule and power. I feel with Transhumanists, we do so out of desperation, because nobody seems at the controls of the good, ship, Universe, most often. The computationalism as a post mortem existence/resurrection, cannot yet be falsified ala Karl Popper, but a stronger paper in math or physics would certainly go a long way in convincing ourselves that it is indeed true and that it is worth doing. Was it not Schrodinger who wrote about the "uncanny accuracy of math in describing the universe"? Such of success would go a long way in moving people along mentally, attitudinally, in viewing their lives and the lives of others. For example, if people become convinced in an intellectual as well as a visceral way, that there is a 'later' via the NDE path, or the Hans Moravec path, then it makes less sense to be a fanatic, a stick in the mud, or even, a pessimist, a cynic. There is suddenly less rational motivation. More coffee, Professor?
Mitch That is a good point. All people coming back from a NDE talk more about "unconditional love". Search for "Anita Mourjani" for eloquent examples. Even people doing "bad NDE trip" understand their own responsibility in this, and never make any hate speech toward any others. Some religion professes that we have to fear God, but that is close to non sense to me or any (neo)platonists. Of course truth can be feared by the liars. Now, with classical computationalism, the blaspheme is when you "name God", not in a theological inquiry, but when trying to put normative behavior on other people. The separation of power is build in the religion, so to speak. Even if you consider this or that text being from God, you have not the right to say that this to somebody else, as that person might not understand (you can't know that), and it became an argument per authority, indeed the worst one from a believer point of view. The second possibility I think is worth examination, is the notion that fantastic computer processing, if we can call it that, could resurrect the dead, or exact copies of the dead, to the point, that from memories, brain states, physicality, personal identity, they are, indeed, the same person who was deceased. Is this madness, a lie? It is an hypothesis, a hope or a fear. It is something which true cannot be proven or rationally justified, so it is also a form of theology. It is called "computationalism". We cannot know it to be true, if true, but we might refute some more precise version of it, like classical comp, which is just comp + the classical logical theory of knowledge (S4), which is recovered from Gödel's provability notion when you apply to it the Theaetetus' definitions of knowledge (true (justified) opinion). Possibly, but these two areas are a means to an end, it is, in essence, the How questions, of How such is accomplished, not necessarily, the why? I think comp can explain the how, and a large part of the why (everything except the very existence of at least one universal system, that you have with the Post-Church-Turing thesis). Such a development, would for sure, alter the behavior of both Umah and Kufar, because the world, in the human mind, and the physical universe would be changed, and likely, for the better. We shall see if this is just a bit of silliness that will be forgotten, or not? I am not sure I understand this, but I guess I still need a bit more coffee :) Bruno -----Original Message----- From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> Sent: Thu, May 29, 2014 4:40 am Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! On 28 May 2014, at 19:21, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: I am not assuming that it is unethical, but I have pieced together that the glorious, afterlife that has been promised, especially for males, is a sure incentive to behave aggressively toward Kufar (infidels). If behaving as such pleases the creator, and guarantees a shaheed (martyr) a bevy of interesting females to spend one's time with, permanent youth and health, the drinking of wine permitted, all this, and more, for the privaledge of pleasing God, dying in the fight, and having all this paradise. I congratulate the faithful for partaking of this heavenly, vision, for it sounds quite excellent! (Sorry, Liz). However, it's wrong-headed, just as the Crusades were, in a 'holy' attempt to regain 'holy ground' slaughter the the non-Christians, and gain great wealth, with the incentive of the son's of the rich could find their fortune and fame in pursuit of wealth and Jesus's favor. That was unethical as well, and very, murderous, as well. People screw up, because that is the nature of the emotional beasts we all are. Thus, misbehavior done in the attempt top gain heaven and get one's self rich, is unethical. What I am curious about is pushing the envelop for the human condition of illness, aging, and death. One area that has gained my attention, the NDE/Sam Paria studies, which indicate the possibility of a post Morten survival. Interestingly enough. such research has a absolute lack of 'returnee's' saying that what they experienced (supposedly) was a demand for war and death. Nobody, comes back, and this is worldwide, saying they were told to slay Muslims, "cross-worshippers, Hindu's, Al Yahoodi, or even Atheists. This, I find interesting. That is a good point. All people coming back from a NDE talk more about "unconditional love". Search for "Anita Mourjani" for eloquent examples. Even people doing "bad NDE trip" understand their own responsibility in this, and never make any hate speech toward any others. Some religion professes that we have to fear God, but that is close to non sense to me or any (neo)platonists. Of course truth can be feared by the liars. Now, with classical computationalism, the blaspheme is when you "name God", not in a theological inquiry, but when trying to put normative behavior on other people. The separation of power is build in the religion, so to speak. Even if you consider this or that text being from God, you have not the right to say that this to somebody else, as that person might not understand (you can't know that), and it became an argument per authority, indeed the worst one from a believer point of view. The second possibility I think is worth examination, is the notion that fantastic computer processing, if we can call it that, could resurrect the dead, or exact copies of the dead, to the point, that from memories, brain states, physicality, personal identity, they are, indeed, the same person who was deceased. Is this madness, a lie? It is an hypothesis, a hope or a fear. It is something which true cannot be proven or rationally justified, so it is also a form of theology. It is called "computationalism". We cannot know it to be true, if true, but we might refute some more precise version of it, like classical comp, which is just comp + the classical logical theory of knowledge (S4), which is recovered from Gödel's provability notion when you apply to it the Theaetetus' definitions of knowledge (true (justified) opinion). Possibly, but these two areas are a means to an end, it is, in essence, the How questions, of How such is accomplished, not necessarily, the why? I think comp can explain the how, and a large part of the why (everything except the very existence of at least one universal system, that you have with the Post-Church-Turing thesis). Such a development, would for sure, alter the behavior of both Umah and Kufar, because the world, in the human mind, and the physical universe would be changed, and likely, for the better. We shall see if this is just a bit of silliness that will be forgotten, or not? I am not sure I understand this, but I guess I still need a bit more coffee :) Bruno -----Original Message----- From: Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> Sent: Wed, May 28, 2014 12:43 pm Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! You assume that Islam is unethical. Quranic teachings are based on beautiful moral principles and enjoin ethical and just relations among people. The Quran repeatedly enjoins good actions, read it and you'll be amazed how far from truth all the negative propaganda against it is! Whether people study and follow the scripture or not is up to them. If we start following the guidance, most of the social evils will be weeded out. Sadly, you confuse peoples' thoughts, behaviour and actions with the message itself. It really doesn't matter if we label ourselves as Muslims, Jews, or any other religion or not, or if we are a member of the clergy or hold any leadership position in the community, it is basically our beliefs, intentions and actions that make us who we are and which we carry with us when we depart from this life. Samiya On 28-May-2014, at 8:52 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List <everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: For me, its the actual physical, ethics, that need to be tuned up. Getting to paradise, however delightful, over someone's dead body is unethical. Morality, is between humans and God technically, but ethics is between people. God, as he exists, can take care of himself, but the all the humbleness in the world, devotion, passion, cannot correct issues, if the Imams, and Muftis, instruct otherwise. Even if the Koran, Soonah, and Bukhari are all God given and have predictions that only God would know, it does no good if the earth gets drowned in blood by seekers of paradise. Unhelpful indeed. -----Original Message----- From: LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> Sent: Wed, May 28, 2014 12:32 am Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! Here's page 1307 - I would prefer it if you quoted whatever it is you're referring to rather than giving a link to a (rather difficult to access) online book, because it doesn't mean much to me... <page1307.png> As for the second link, I don't understand what it says there either - it certainly isn't a very succinct "summary". On 28 May 2014 16:19, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote: There is a debate between the interpretation of the word s-j-d. I assume it also means to become lowly, humble, submissive, and not only physical prostration. [http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/ Book 1 Page 1307 ] Summary of why is can't only mean physical prostration: http://www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:10 AM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: Does it also explain how planets prostrate themselves? On 28 May 2014 15:51, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote: I won't be surprised if they eventually discover that there are a total of 11 or 12 planets in the solar system. [Al-Qur'an 12:4, Translator: Pickthall] When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me. [Al-Qur'an 12:100, Translator: Pickthall] And he placed his parents on the dais and they fell down before him prostrate, and he said: O my father! This is the interpretation of my dream of old. My Lord hath made it true, and He hath shown me kindness, since He took me out of the prison and hath brought you from the desert after Satan had made strife between me and my brethren. Lo! my Lord is tender unto whom He will. He is the Knower, the Wise. Samiya http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/ On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:35 AM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: Pluto Bids To Get Back Planetary Status Pluto has at least five moons, an atmosphere and now a new analysis places its diameter as bigger than its outer solar system rival Eris. http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/pluto-bids-for-planethood/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. 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