Yeah, I get the thing about religion and all that. This is a bit different since it speaks to inception (a decent movie) of the Hubble volume, and why things seem just so. I also like Everett's MWI. Maybe Hell was out-sourced to Bulgaria? I am guessing that God might be really good to talk with, if we can ever locate him/her, (sans prayer), because where'd he come up with the ideas, and how did It manage to do this? -----Original Message----- From: John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 4:23 pm Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
Mich: as long as the Faithful think of God in their (natural) mind the God they think of IS natural. We cannot think of a supernatural with our "natural" mentality and limitations. Anything " WE " think about God is within the (our!) natural order. Limited into our "model" of knowables. We can "TALK" about supernatural - it is "TALK" (Blah Blah). Contentless. Whoever 'created' - H E L L - was planning on uncontrollable sinners to populate it. If it has been created for humans, our kind is imperfect and uncontrollable and the 'final' judgement must be non-forgiving to put them into Hell. Or is it a contract with Satan? JM On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 11:34 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List <everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: What about this Irish Times article? It seems to be out of the box thinking. I don't know, if true, that it has any value for the human species? But it might in my imagination. My imagination, plus 3.50, can get me a coffee latte. Any thoughts, condemnatory or laudatory. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/what-if-god-were-part-of-the-natural-order-1.1836816 -----Original Message----- From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 3:39 am Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! On 23 Jun 2014, at 18:39, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: Dear John, it is wasted time and effort to argue "who is right" in a question that raises 2 billion children in a 'faith' they will live by - AND such 'faith' does include the killing of 'infidels' (meaning: who do not share their faith to the last comma) and many more peculiarities which our part of the world would not accept anymore. There is no question about 'truth', believability, oracles and supernatural wisdom, there is a 1500 year old power over billions of people with no questions asking and willing to do whatever they believe has to be done. It is the same problem with christianism, but such structure has shown to be able to evolve a bit. Then I would differentiate muslims, literalist muslim, and fanatics. Only the later are dangerous. I think that Samiya is open to discussion, even if it is not clear how far she is to doubt the literal Quran, which of course is necessary at the start if only to see if it contains anything "scientific" (in physics, biology, ... but also theology). This hides the real roots of fundamentalism which is that we have forbid the use of science (that is the skeptical spirit since well, indeed 1500 years. Regarding skepticism, the High Holy Days service of Judaism contains a prayer for the value of doubt. Not sure how far back the origin of that prayer is in time, but it certainly contributes to regard that Jews have for science. Interesting. In fact judaism; like taoism, and branches of buddhism encourage the comments to the sacred texts, and allow a sort of jurisprudence making possible some notion of amendment, and favorize the non literal reading of texts. Google does not seem to know of its existence. The net does not know everything, and contains a lot of propaganda of many kinds. Bruno Richard There were argumentations a millennium ago, but the sword answered. Wars and wars. We have different vocabularies and both sides understand things differently. Those are political, if not economical war, disguised in religious war. I do not say which part is 'better-or-worse' I am just sorry for an advanced worldview getting erased by a violent ancient force that overwhelms our civilisation. (Q: are WE civil, indeed?) An ancient force like fire can erase in few weeks what needed an incredibly long/deep history like a tree or a forest. It is in the nature of wiseness and advanced mind to be the easy prey for violence. Are we civil? Well, officially, the US is no more since the 31 december 2011 (NDAA 12). But the bad seed comes from something older than Kennedy's assassination. There is a problem with radical islamism, but the real problem is in the exploitation of that problem by bandits to hide their lucrative criminal activities. The war on drugs and the war on terror are de facto non stopping wars which constantly create and fuel its "enemy". The value of money is based on trust which needs *fair* competition, and a notion of genuine use, but the society get a cancer when money is used to create "fake money", based on lies or on problems created for that purpose. Bandits might be a progress compared to dictator using god to justify its job. So we are not civil, but still can become. Virgin lôbian number seem civil at the start. Uncivilness seems to be only a bad habit, a "passage" similar to some dilemmas in game theory, when you can make a very big win by ceasing cooperation. May be that's a devil's temptation, or the fall from sane egoism into psychopathic or paranoid egocentrism. Bruno John M On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: On 29 May 2014, at 05:33, Samiya Illias wrote: On 28-May-2014, at 10:12 pm, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote: Ok, so let's talk some specifics. Islamists issued death sentences on people for artistic expression. Famously on Salman Rushdie for writing a book, and several people for drawing Mohammed. When I was living in Paris, the building of a small publication was bombed for publishing a drawing of Mohammed. The Quran advises us (6:68,69) to remove ourselves from the company of those who blaspheme, till they do not change to another topic. It does not prescribe any of the above forms of punishment. OK. Women in Islamic societies are frequently punished for being raped, their husbands are allowed to beat them (against their will, I have nothing against consensual BDSM), they are sentenced to stoning to death for adultery (even when they were raped), they have to dress in a certain way and can be publicly lashed for not doing so and they are prevented from going to school. Even recently, young girls were attacked for attending school. The Quran prescribes (24:1-14) 100 public lashes for adulterers Is that not a blaspheme? Using the 'Name' as authority in the temporal moral code realm. If two person decide to live together and promise to God maintaining fidelity, say for 500 years, and one betrayed the other, it is only the other, and God which have to handle this. Not the friends, not the family, not the Government. Just each others, the person involved, and, if they need, the helps of shamans and wise or spiritual persons. I don't think that any humans or group of humans, can intentionally harm other humans without consent (with rare exception like the legitimate defense). The problem comes only from the literalist interpretation. We can vote for laws, and nobody should forbid you to consult sacred books or God, if you can, or divine subaltern in Heaven (in case you found a two way shortcut) before voting, but the laws should not refer to It, and I think cannot, refer to It without blaspheming. A famous another example of such blaspheme. is Genghis Khan's statement ""I am the punishment of God. If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you." The good guy get a sadist impulse? He believes in God, so he take it as a sign that he has a right to hurt someone, as his divine pleasure assures him that its victim has necessarily committed great sin, that God allows a good fellow like him/her to torture. (not rape victim); for that 4 witnesses of the crime are required, and if the witnesses are found to be lying, then 80 lashes for the persons who give false witness, and they are to be banned from bearing witness in any other case. Regarding beating by husbands, you refer to 4:15. I think the interpretation of the word d-r-b is incorrect, and it is separation which is advised, not beating. However, most translators and scholars insist it means beating. I disagree. I am glad you disagree, and I appreciate that honest statement. In the comp 'fairy tale", it is said that if you kill all the humans for your own pleasure, well, you have still some chance to go to heaven, but if you hurt a fly's leg and justify the act with the name of the unnameable, there is much less hope. Quran advises (24:31) women the covering of their bosoms with scarf; head covering is not explicitly stated but it's traditional in almost all religions. Mother Mary's statues all show her head covered. Muslims did not make those statues. Also, till about a century ago, almost all people, men and women, used to wear some sort of headgear, in most cultures. The Quran also advises (33:59) draping a cloak over the body, when going out, if one fears for her safety. Is that good advise? Homosexuality is considered a crime. Yes, the people of Sodom received divine punished for it. Verse 4:16 contains guidance for how to deal with this crime. See above. Limb amputation is considered an acceptable punishment. Quran (5:38) prescribes cutting off the hand of the thief. I believe it is implemented in Saudi Arabia where theft incidences are very low. However, I have heard scholars argue that such laws can only be implemented in an ideal Islamic welfare society where excuses / rationale for theft are almost non-existent, and thereby stealing is a pure crime, not borne of any need for survival. So, my question to you is this: do you condemn these actions? If so, do you claim that they stem from a misunderstanding of the Quran? I am a Muslim. I believe the Quran to be divine guidance. Therefore, I accept everything in it, and try to understand the best meaning thereof. It is hidden, it can't be literal. (provably so assuming comp + some "simple definition", and even in comp the G/G* theory cannot be taken literally. Humans can be very influenced by their education. Imagine that at the age of two month you would have been raised by christians, or by atheists, or think about any existing religion, do you think you would have been Muslim? The real sacred book is in your heart, it makes you "invariant" for the sacred texts. However, on this forum, I only invite you all to benefit from the factual accuracy of the Quran in your efforts to understand the world of science. I am not asking anyone to become a Muslim. Faith, we believe, is God's gift to the willing heart. You talk like if the Muslims have the monopoly of faith. It is a bit like telling us that you found the truth, and that the non-muslims are erring. You might introduced a non needed dichotomy. If you want do science, I am afraid you need to train yourself in much more doubt and modesty. Only the gigantic doubt can reveal the most certain part of reality, and deepen the faith, by notably making it more independent from the human words, images and stories. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. 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