On 29 Jun 2014, at 21:20, LizR wrote:
On 29 June 2014 20:04, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
With comp, what i showed is that we have indeed to extract the law
of the qubits ("quantum logic") from the laws of the bits (the laws
of Boole, + Boolos). IMO, Everett + decoherence already shows the
road qubits to bits. But comp provides a double (by G/G*) reverse of
that road, which separates quanta and qualia (normally, although
quanta must be a first person plural).
It sounds to me as though you are saying that information is real
if arithmetic is real...?
What do you mean by "real" here?
The question is not so much about what is real, but about what is
primitively real.
With computationalism, and the TOE chosen, 0, s(0), ... and + and *
are primitively real, as we assume the RA axioms. Information is
derived from it, both the classical one, and the quantum one.
But a physicist like Landauer(*) would say that "information" is
real because it is an essentially physical things:
(*)
http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~biophy09/Biophysik-Vorlesung_2009-2010_DATA/QUELLEN/LIT/A/B/3/Landauer_1996_physical_nature_information.pdf
(If so, deriving the entropy of a black hole would be support for
comp :-)
I don't see why. It would be consistent with Landauer's notion of
physical information, ISTM.
Maybe I jumped the gun here, or something.
I should have written: "It would be consistent with Landauer's notion
of *primitive* physical information, ISTM."
Deriving the entropy of a black hole seems to me - upon reflection -
to show that information is physically real,
That's not clear to me. deriving the number of items in my fridge
might makes those items real, but not necessarily the number itself
real. I mean that a physicalist can argue in that sense.
so it makes it as real as the physical world.
Not for a primitive materialist, who will say that the information are
only in your mind.
According to comp the physical world is not primitively real, so
information would be not primitively real either.
No. Although you get shannon information quasi directly with the self-
duplication, and get some trace of the quantum information in the
first person plural. OK.
However, it WOULD be physically real,
The quantum one, yes.
which is a step away from "just something convenient for humans to
use" (like temperature, as mentioned elsewhere).
I agree.
This seems to accord with fundamental particles appearing to be
little bundles of information, which I think is roughly A Garrett
Lisi's view, amongst others (JA Wheeler?)
JA Wheeler, sure. Garret Lisi? If you can give a quote. I don't see
him even addressing the question of the nature of "his particles". He
proposed a very cute and quasi-convincing theory (except it does not
work), very mathematical. But he does not address the "reality"
question. May be I am wrong on this, but then I would be happy with a
reference.
The fact that only "erasing information" needs energy is fascinating,
and still a bit weird in the comp perspective. It might be a very
fundamental fact, and the shadow of it in arithmetic might be the
symmetry of the logic of observable on the atomic (sigma_1)
proposition, and the antisymmetry just above. But I don't want get too
much technical.
Bruno
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