> On 18 Aug 2014, at 8:16 am, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 18 August 2014 06:41, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On 8/16/2014 11:02 PM, LizR wrote:
>>>> Indeed. This is generally my objection to theories that require conscious
>>>> observers (and also my objection to people who say 1+1=2 is a human
>>>> invention, by the way, since the laws of physics, which appear to be based
>>>> on arithmetic, still worked fine without any conscious beings to "invent"
>>>> them).
>> But that's because we invented them to work that way. We invented language
>> to describe things as we seen them and then we make inferences from it.
>
> Yes, note the "As we see them" in the above sentence. If we are describing
> things as we see them, we aren't inventing them.
"As we see them" = perception. Perception = seeing with the mind. The mind is
an object which has been mooted to exhibit a structure; a conscious, an
unconscious, an experiencing ego and various other purported "stable
complexes" (Id, anima, shadow, superego etc.) which are (if you go with Jung
and Freud) more like numinous archetypes or platonic entities that seed
experience and behaviour. The ego has free will and hence can devise an agenda,
whether conscious or not, but the self can sometimes have other plans. Human
nature is verrrrrry messy. In trying to account for the existence of mind we
forget that we are just as likely being imperceptably controlled by the very
thing we are trying to observe (usually via language, yes.)
> We already had an argument about your weird use of "invent" to mean
> "discover" - we don't invent the world that is being described, we only
> invent the particular form of the description, like using the symbol "1". If
> you're going to use invent and discover interchangeably like this, fine, just
> remind me not to bother discussing it with you in future.
>
It's a bit naughty, yes. Invention is active. Discovery is largely passive.
They are entirely different. "We" don't invent anything. We discover ourselves
in the act of discovering the usefulness of something and putting that thing,
idea or concept to use. The "invent" part is in the usage of the thing. Before
that it's pure perception, often with a range of alternatives that we never
explore because we are, as ever, in a hurry to form a judgement and say "what
is."
It's not like the evolution of language was the result of committee based
language-planning think tanks.
"Today's meting is about the need for a number 1. Does anyone dispute the need
for this?"
Actually, many people confuse "discover" and "invent". As in "Mommy, mommy, why
can't I find out what I want to do in life?"
Kim
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