On 10 Oct 2014, at 00:21, John Mikes wrote:
Samiya, I did not participate in the sequence about your wisdom on
the list, because you did not refer to my question: WHAT, WHEN, and
HOW did it occur that you first thought of the existence of God? (I
suggested tha it was your Mummy and at your age as a baby when you
were taught to pray, giving you the overtone of your thinking. Later
on you may have expanded into the wisdom your father was studting.)
I am not a Bible-scholar, consider the
Jewish Bible a compendium of earlier tales from (mostly mid-eastern)
people - then the
Christian Bible a second tier leaving out things and adding Jesus-
related stories, (attached some modifications from reform-thinking),
while
some hundred years after Jesus the Prophet Mohammad presented the
Quran as the work of Allah.
We are not capable of thinking otherwise than in our human logic
PLUS restricted to our 'knowledge-base' we (to date) accumulated and
believe.
Teleology - the AIM of the World - is beyond that.
What I believe in my gnostic thinking is a "WORLD" of infinite
complexity of which we got only limited glimpses - even those not
correctly understood.
That's exactly how the arithmetical truth looks like from the
perspective of the universal numbers.
Of this 'treasure' of "knowledge" we THINK we know the World. Well,
we don't.
Nor do they. But the wisest know they don't know.
We don't know what is good, or bad,
I agree if you mean the moral good or moral bad and other theories,
but basically we know very well what is good and bad. I agree that if
we look at the details, it can look a bit like the Mandelbrot set, but
for the main things I think all the mammals knows the difference
between good (like eating, mating, dancing, ...) and bad (sick,
desperate, broken, burning, etc.).
Now the good divides into the good good and the bad good, and the bad
divides into the good bad, and the bad bad.
Amateur of wines and beers knows things around this.
what (so far) unknowable factors do influence whatever happens in
addition to those we (think) we know. If there is a 'Godly'
teleology, our human logic asks: Why did a 'Creator' not create it
as it is to be finally, but that would go into your prohibition of
questioning God.
Samiya, does the Quran prohibits questioning God?
Do you think we can avoid questioning when praying?
I disagree with Brent's "random" - I deny the concept at all -
changes are all deterministic whether we know the details, or not.
In the big picture, I agree. from inside, the frontier between the
deterministic and the non deterministic is infinitely complex.
I don't repeat the chorus: who created the Creator?
A swarm of numbers.
(Again a point way beyond our mental capabilities).
To be sure, yes, to grasp as a possible theory, it is different. You
can't use an argument for something beyond our mental capabilities as
a refutation of a theory. This would no more be agnosticism, but use
of a metaphysical principle to discard a class of theories, without
argument.
The point being here that numbers can see their own limitations, and
grasp that truth extends properly their justifiability abilities.
Human science works on theories - explanations of the unexplained -
axioms - necessary conditions for the theories to work - and
consequences - reduced to the level of the up-to-date functioning of
our mental capablity.
Evidence is in the eye of the beholder.
Absolutely so :)
Bruno
I find it remarkable that your Quran-quote extendes to geography
discovered way after (into?) Hedzhra also the cosmology formulated
during the recent times and chemistry of the last 100 years (ozon?)
- maybe they are included only in the paraphernalia.
I would love to read about the other animals as well including non-
terrestrials.
Have a good time, and forgive my interruption
John Mikes
On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 11:35 PM, Samiya Illias
<samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote:
What is your position on teleology? Do you think that there is a
cause or purpose for everything?
Also, what do you think of this:
http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/08/teleology-purpose-built-universe.html
Samiya
On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 7:30 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
On 10/8/2014 5:07 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 2:50 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>
wrote:
On 10/8/2014 10:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 07 Oct 2014, at 20:17, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/7/2014 1:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 06 Oct 2014, at 20:15, meekerdb wrote:
Here's an interesting interview of a philosopher who is
interested in the question of whether God exists. The
interesting thing about it, for this list, is that "God" is
implicitly the god of theism, and is not "one's reason for
existence" or "the unprovable truths of arithmetic".
How do you know that? How could you know that.
I read the interview. For example
D.G.: I'm not a believer, so I'm not in a position to say. First
of all, it's worth noting that some of the biggest empirical
challenges don't come from science but from common features of
life. Perhaps the hardest case for believers is the Problem of
Evil: The question of how a benevolent God could allow the
existence of evil in the world, both natural evils like
devastating earthquakes and human evils like the Holocaust, has
always been a great challenge to faith in God. There is, of
course, a long history of responses to that problem that goes
back to Job. While nonbelievers (like me) consider this a major
problem, believers have, for the most part, figured out how to
accommodate themselves to it.
It's obvious that Garber is talking about the god of theism. If
he were referring to some abstract principle or set of unprovable
truths there would be no "problem of evil" for that god.
On the contrary, computationalism will relate qualia like pain and
evil related things with what numbers can endure in a fist person
perspective yet understand that this enduring is ineffable and
hard to justify and be confronted with that very problem.
But under computationlism it's not a problem. The is no
presumption that a computable world is morally good by human
standards.
Under computationalism, all possible worlds and all possible
observers exist and there's nothing God can do about it. God can no
more make certain observers or observations not exist than make 2 +
2 = 3. However, a benevolent theistic god under computationalism
(with access to unlimited computing resources) could nonetheless
"save" beings who existed in other worlds by continuing the
computation of their minds.
You say "could" as though he had a choice, meaning He's not part of
the computable world and is not one of the "all possible
observers". Seems to me that he will have to both save everyone and
also torture everyone in hell.
Brent
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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