On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > > On 18 Dec 2014, at 10:58, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: >> >> >> On 17 Dec 2014, at 13:03, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >> >> Starting from the fact that The NHS was introduced by Bismark in the >> German Empire. for the same reasons that it is sustained today by >> "democracies": populism. >> >> Since the introduction of NHS in England no new hospital was constructed >> until recently. >> >> Democracy, an element of the liberal state, lives on premises that it can >> not itself guarantee. (Bockenforde). It is based on the idea that people >> will not act or vote for their inmediate interests but will vote for >> anything that maintain the common good forever. That is absolutely false. >> The only thing that maintain democracy is not democracy, but the morality >> of the people. That morality is contunuously underminded by democracy >> itself by means of the logic of populism and the formation of majorities >> that produce false and impossible and incompatible political promises for >> different groups of people. That divides and confront ones with others. >> >> It is based on the idea that a million idiot votes within an urn produces >> wise decissions. On the idea that consensus produce truth. >> >> Democracy is destined to be hyaked by false democrats that do not believe >> in democracy but want to abuse it from inside . They are the worst >> antidemocrats. And the responsibles of that hyaking are te dumb people that >> believe acritically in democracy. >> >> >> >> I disagree. Democracy is based on the fact that people will vote for >> their immediate interest, and that it will be implemented reasonably well >> by opportunist politicians, and if they don't succeed people will stop >> voting against them. (so it is not just vote, but a promise that you can >> vote again if dissatisfied). >> > > Given a currency that cannot be manipulated by a central bank and that is > based on some limited resource, why not just implement democracy through > the free market? > > > OK, with some regulation, and a way to tackle propaganda, etc. > > > > > Everything you pay for is an instant vote. > > >> >> Democracy is not perfect, and indeed it can regress easily to tyranny. >> Like a living being can die, or a cell become cancerous, democracy can >> easily be perverted and misused by bandits or ideologues. There is nothing >> we can do about that, except investing in means (like education, logic, >> reasoning, ...) helping people to not fall in the trap of the demagogs. >> > > But once the education system is both compulsory and under the control of > the state, if the state gets corrupted how to spread education logic and > reasoning and still work within the system? > > > Well, if the state is corrupted up to the point of teachning 2+2=5, it > means the democracy does no more exist. In that case you need a revolution > (non violent if possible). > > > > > > >> >> It is not the system which makes bad people. It is bad people which makes >> the system bad. >> > > I disagree. Systems can make bad people by learned helplessness. > > > How? >
In my view: by showing you over and over that virtue is not rewarded. Brains are adaptive survival machines, very attuned to learn what works in their environments. > > > > >> >> How americans have ever accepted prohibition remains a bit of a mystery >> to me. In this context, I am not so much for legalization of drugs than for >> penalization of prohibitionists, and education explaining how prohibition >> illustrates well a technic to kill democracy and its most important key >> features like the separation and independence of the different powers, >> including the press. >> >> But the institutionalization of religion, especially when the state and >> the religion are not well separated is a deeper cause of the problem for >> democracies. It is that mentality which has made possible prohibition: the >> very idea that other people can decide for you between the good and the >> wrong. That would not have happened if the spiritual domain remained what >> is really: an investigation domain like any others, calling for >> experiments, experiences and dialog, and no normative rules ever. Those are >> object of laws, voted by the people or representative delegates of the >> people. >> >> What would you suggest in place of democracy? If a democracy can be >> hijacked, don't you think that anything else couldn't even more >> easily be hijacked? >> > > I still have problems with discussing "democracy" as if it was a single, > well defined system. If you tell me that a state is a democracy, I still > want to know more, especially along two lines that I could call ethical and > scientific: > > Ethic: what are the limits on what the majority can impose on the > individual? How were these limits derived? > > > The majority cannot impose anything, except rules of laws. "not killing, > not crossing red fires, etc.". > Yes but these rules can go too much into the private-sphere. Thus the need for the constitutional meta-rules. > Then with democracy liberty can grow with the evolution of mentality. Only > in democracies have the right of homoseulas been recognized. In all > non-democracies they are still persecuted, etc. > There have been many societies that had had no problem with homosexuals. Modern homophobia and sexual morality sees to have spread from the protestants through the power of the English empire. One example of an ancient civilisation that discovered sexual repression in modernity through the victorians is Japan. > > > > > Scientific: how are bad decisions reversed? How is the "menu" of things > that I can vote for created? > > > By you, in case you find 500 people signing your program. (Well, that the > method here). Of course, it does no more work when the bandits got the > power. But that is lack of democracy, not democracy. > But it's not just the bandits, it's also game theory. Modern democracies suffer from a strong tendency to become Keynesian beauty contests. Very easily the optimal strategy for the big parties becomes a move to the average opinion. Some people say this is a good thing. I think it's a dangerous thing because it's self-reinforcing and because consensus and truth are very different things. So I think removing the bandits is not enough. It is also necessary to analyse the democratic system scientifically and understand the incentives it creates. > > > > The problem with making attacks on "democracy" tabu is that it also the > discussion of the above questions also becomes tabu. Just because we have a > democratic system doesn't mean we have a good one, from the infinite set of > possible democratic system. > > > Yes. democracy is necessary, but nver sufficient. democracy is the start, > and it can be improved, unlike all other systems known. > Unless you have a better idea, but usually, those against democracy are > either utopic belief in the nature of the humans, or want to impose a way > of life to everybody. I think. > > Bruno > > > > Telmo. > > >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> 2014-12-16 15:44 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>: >>> >>> >>> On 15 Dec 2014, at 19:51, LizR wrote: >>> >>> What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of >>>> people here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle. >>>> Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone >>>> else (the NHS, conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations, >>>> police, army science etc etc). Yet all I can see here is people saying that >>>> it doesn't work. I think the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it >>>> doesn't work. The NHS (despite everything) was one of the greatest >>>> achievements of the 20th century, after all. And it was introduced by a >>>> government because of its beliefs and principles. >>>> >>> >>> I agree completely with you. Like academies, democracies are the worst >>> except for anything else. >>> Many people criticize the system, and this *benefits* those who pervert >>> the system. Our democracies are sick (and partially hijacked by corporatist >>> interests), but this needs we must heal them, not condemn it. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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