> On 27 Dec 2014, at 9:59 pm, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> But that is not democracy. That is freedom. Freedom has existed without
> democracy since the beginning. Unless we enter in a crazy contemporary
> chauvinism that redefines freedom as existence of the majority rule. Although
> many people is so crazy and low educated and self centered as to accept this
> kind of nonsense.
But freedom - true freedom, and not the illusion of freedom, as in certain
countries that will remain nameless such as Russia and the DPRK, ultimately
ENTAILS (something like) democracy, especially in an expanding population.
It's a bit like the word "café". It is both the drink and the place you go to
get the drink.
I said before "you are living in a democracy if you feel free..."
The whole purpose of democracy is that it "releases its citizens from chains"
so that they "feel free". The way it "does this" is by allowing the prevailing
mood of the majority to install or de-install a bunch of execs who "execute the
will of the people".
Sure, buddy, sure.
All the scare quotes intended because a lot of democracy is quite simply based
on people being made to be convinced that they are free without this actually
being fully evident.
Like, Americans love to rhapsodise about their "freedom". Particularly at the
moment, with this B-grade comedy about Kim Jong Un finally a national duty to
go see if you "value your freedom". What if it is such a shit movie anyway that
you wouldn't go see it even if someone issued you with a death threat?
Am I still "free" if I choose not to see a movie on grounds other than the
populist ones? Personally, I don't believe any of this has anything at all to
do with freedom as I understand it.
It has to do with your definition of freedom and what particular political
process you want to design to prop that up with. Democracy appears to be the
best we can do up to here. There is perhaps the best simulation available of
freedom under certain democracies. Life in Australia and New Zealand would
appear to be "freer" at present than in the USA where the Department of
Homeland Security has stocked up to fight urban war on an zombie apocalyptic
scale for the forseeable future. We are all self-declared democracies, yet some
of us are freer.
K
>
> As well as there have been an there is a lack of freedom under the majority
> rule. Whenever the majority legislate against the anthropological, economical
> or physical reality. (There have been democratic decrees to render flu
> illegal)
>
> 2014-12-27 3:11 GMT+01:00 Kim Jones <kimjo...@ozemail.com.au>:
>> Democracy is a concept. It can be implemented in various ways. I like Liz's
>> conceptualisation of it as communist-style sharing of astcronomical wealth
>> and resources among the elites with cockroaches and urine for breakfast for
>> the rest of us (that's what prisoners in North Korea get given for breakfast
>> according to QC Geoffrey Robertson.) No one who gets jugged hare and Beluga
>> caviar for lunch around Pyongyang feels like they exist in anything other
>> than a perfect democracy.
>>
>> You are living in a democracy if you feel free and not necessarily
>> threatened by anyone or anything and can see where your immediate future is
>> coming from. Strangely, many Chinese find themselves living in at least a
>> partial democracy. China urbanises roughly the population of Australia (21
>> or so million) each year. From the duck farm straight to middle-class
>> suburban democracy. They may not have the same freedoms but by golly they
>> sure have developed the hankering for the jugged hare and the Beluga caviar
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 24 Dec 2014, at 10:07 pm, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> By the way, you can observe that the terms of the language used by
>>> political analysts is feudal: they use loyalities, electoral feuds,
>>> baronies to describe what happens in politics because they fit naturally
>>> with the true nature of the problem that they are dealing with. They do not
>>> realize most of the time that they are using a medieval language. But
>>> that´s it.
>>>
>>> 2014-12-24 11:58 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>:
>>>> The modern man is to politics what the ancient alchemists were to
>>>> chemistry: Both believe that the final result depends on the shape of the
>>>> recipient.
>>>>
>>>> 2014-12-23 23:14 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>:
>>>>> Democracy is an false envelope, a fetish name for a what is the best of
>>>>> the western world. The freedom and innovation is not nor event would be
>>>>> based of democracy. If the idea of democracy - that is the idea that the
>>>>> truth comes from consensus, were the thing that gives freedom and
>>>>> innovation, then herds of sheeps would have been exploring the galaxy
>>>>> millions of years ago. It should not be necessary forme to explain this
>>>>> to you.
>>>>>
>>>>> What gives freedom is the respect for the individual. That does not come
>>>>> from democracy. democracy may be a (maybe wrong) consecuence of the
>>>>> respect for the individual. This respect comes from outside of the
>>>>> political system. It comes from Christianity. it will last for as much as
>>>>> Christianity will endure. And will end in the very moment that
>>>>> Christianity is repressed. I invite you to look at the (frequent) moments
>>>>> of supression of freedom in Europe.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2014-12-22 18:42 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 22 Dec 2014, at 15:42, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >Democracy makes it possible to live differently from the mainstream.
>>>>>>> >It is >not easy, and democracy is not enough, but it can help better
>>>>>>> >than a tyrant >or community enforcing arbitrary rules without means of
>>>>>>> >contesting them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And what differences "Democracy" from a tirant or community enforcing
>>>>>>> arbitrary rules without means of contesting them?.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Democracy is a ritualized form of brute force. The root of the
>>>>>>> democratic idea is the sacralization of numeric force. And the
>>>>>>> legitimation is, consciously or unconsciously, the realization for
>>>>>>> everyone, that the majority would win a bloody confrontation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That IS the TRUE legitimization of democracy. In the same way that two
>>>>>>> deers will not fight if one show bigger horns, since the result of the
>>>>>>> combat is already know. Each side of a democratic contest does not
>>>>>>> fight for the same reason.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The difference is that in democracy the force comes from the highest
>>>>>>> pitch for the best short term offer in exchange for the longer term
>>>>>>> disaster. The coalition that accept that mix of offer and lies is the
>>>>>>> Tyrant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, you will not succeed in breaking my pleasure to see democracy
>>>>>> making progress in East-europa and in the middle-east, where it means to
>>>>>> just been able to discuss and gossip behind a beer or a coffee without
>>>>>> fearing delation from some spy hostage of the power. And today my
>>>>>> pleasure is made great with the election of a laic muslim in Tunisia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I even consider that Egypt's democracy has win when people elected the
>>>>>> Muslim Brotherhood, and has still win when the same people re-install
>>>>>> courageously the military dictatorship once they saw the persecution of
>>>>>> jews and christian coming back, and when they understood that a military
>>>>>> dictatorship was the only way to save the possibility of a democracy in
>>>>>> some middle run, a possibility that the fanatic islamists were
>>>>>> threatening.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is easy to criticize democracy in a democacry (even old and sick),
>>>>>> but most people living in non democratic regime suffer a lot, and have
>>>>>> no hope---except for the ruling minority which can stand for many
>>>>>> generations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would you prefer to live in North Korea or in South Korea? Honestly.
>>>>>> Come on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Democracy is not perfect. A bit like computationalism, it is not the
>>>>>> solution of the problems, but an efficacious frame making it possible to
>>>>>> formulate the problems, and listen to different solutions, and keep the
>>>>>> extremists at bay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, a democracy can be tyrannic, or lead to a tyranny, but with a
>>>>>> tyranny, well you are already in the tyranny, and you can fear even your
>>>>>> friends and brothers and sisters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2014-12-22 13:24 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 22 Dec 2014, at 00:36, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Dec 2014, at 10:58, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17 Dec 2014, at 13:03, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Starting from the fact that The NHS was introduced by Bismark in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the German Empire. for the same reasons that it is sustained
>>>>>>>>>>>>> today by "democracies": populism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since the introduction of NHS in England no new hospital was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed until recently.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democracy, an element of the liberal state, lives on premises
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it can not itself guarantee. (Bockenforde). It is based on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the idea that people will not act or vote for their inmediate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests but will vote for anything that maintain the common
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good forever. That is absolutely false. The only thing that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> maintain democracy is not democracy, but the morality of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people. That morality is contunuously underminded by democracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself by means of the logic of populism and the formation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> majorities that produce false and impossible and incompatible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> political promises for different groups of people. That divides
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and confront ones with others.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is based on the idea that a million idiot votes within an urn
>>>>>>>>>>>>> produces wise decissions. On the idea that consensus produce
>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democracy is destined to be hyaked by false democrats that do not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe in democracy but want to abuse it from inside . They are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the worst antidemocrats. And the responsibles of that hyaking are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> te dumb people that believe acritically in democracy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. Democracy is based on the fact that people will vote
>>>>>>>>>>>> for their immediate interest, and that it will be implemented
>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonably well by opportunist politicians, and if they don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> succeed people will stop voting against them. (so it is not just
>>>>>>>>>>>> vote, but a promise that you can vote again if dissatisfied).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Given a currency that cannot be manipulated by a central bank and
>>>>>>>>>>> that is based on some limited resource, why not just implement
>>>>>>>>>>> democracy through the free market?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OK, with some regulation, and a way to tackle propaganda, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Everything you pay for is an instant vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Democracy is not perfect, and indeed it can regress easily to
>>>>>>>>>>>> tyranny. Like a living being can die, or a cell become cancerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>> democracy can easily be perverted and misused by bandits or
>>>>>>>>>>>> ideologues. There is nothing we can do about that, except
>>>>>>>>>>>> investing in means (like education, logic, reasoning, ...) helping
>>>>>>>>>>>> people to not fall in the trap of the demagogs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But once the education system is both compulsory and under the
>>>>>>>>>>> control of the state, if the state gets corrupted how to spread
>>>>>>>>>>> education logic and reasoning and still work within the system?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, if the state is corrupted up to the point of teachning 2+2=5,
>>>>>>>>>> it means the democracy does no more exist. In that case you need a
>>>>>>>>>> revolution (non violent if possible).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not the system which makes bad people. It is bad people
>>>>>>>>>>>> which makes the system bad.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. Systems can make bad people by learned helplessness.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In my view: by showing you over and over that virtue is not rewarded.
>>>>>>>>> Brains are adaptive survival machines, very attuned to learn what
>>>>>>>>> works in their environments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Virtue is the reward. If someone practice a virtue for a reward, then
>>>>>>>> it is not virtue. (Note that this is the basic wrongness of religion:
>>>>>>>> it leads to people doing virtue for reward and not doing the wrong for
>>>>>>>> fear of punishment, but who can really appreciate someone doing the
>>>>>>>> good to you just because it fears a punishment? You get the fake
>>>>>>>> virtue.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How americans have ever accepted prohibition remains a bit of a
>>>>>>>>>>>> mystery to me. In this context, I am not so much for legalization
>>>>>>>>>>>> of drugs than for penalization of prohibitionists, and education
>>>>>>>>>>>> explaining how prohibition illustrates well a technic to kill
>>>>>>>>>>>> democracy and its most important key features like the separation
>>>>>>>>>>>> and independence of the different powers, including the press.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But the institutionalization of religion, especially when the
>>>>>>>>>>>> state and the religion are not well separated is a deeper cause of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the problem for democracies. It is that mentality which has made
>>>>>>>>>>>> possible prohibition: the very idea that other people can decide
>>>>>>>>>>>> for you between the good and the wrong. That would not have
>>>>>>>>>>>> happened if the spiritual domain remained what is really: an
>>>>>>>>>>>> investigation domain like any others, calling for experiments,
>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences and dialog, and no normative rules ever. Those are
>>>>>>>>>>>> object of laws, voted by the people or representative delegates of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the people.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What would you suggest in place of democracy? If a democracy can
>>>>>>>>>>>> be hijacked, don't you think that anything else couldn't even more
>>>>>>>>>>>> easily be hijacked?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I still have problems with discussing "democracy" as if it was a
>>>>>>>>>>> single, well defined system. If you tell me that a state is a
>>>>>>>>>>> democracy, I still want to know more, especially along two lines
>>>>>>>>>>> that I could call ethical and scientific:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ethic: what are the limits on what the majority can impose on the
>>>>>>>>>>> individual? How were these limits derived?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The majority cannot impose anything, except rules of laws. "not
>>>>>>>>>> killing, not crossing red fires, etc.".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes but these rules can go too much into the private-sphere. Thus the
>>>>>>>>> need for the constitutional meta-rules.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No problem with this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then with democracy liberty can grow with the evolution of
>>>>>>>>>> mentality. Only in democracies have the right of homoseulas been
>>>>>>>>>> recognized. In all non-democracies they are still persecuted, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There have been many societies that had had no problem with
>>>>>>>>> homosexuals. Modern homophobia and sexual morality sees to have
>>>>>>>>> spread from the protestants through the power of the English empire.
>>>>>>>>> One example of an ancient civilisation that discovered sexual
>>>>>>>>> repression in modernity through the victorians is Japan.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Democracy makes it possible to live differently from the mainstream.
>>>>>>>> It is not easy, and democracy is not enough, but it can help better
>>>>>>>> than a tyrant or community enforcing arbitrary rules without means of
>>>>>>>> contesting them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Scientific: how are bad decisions reversed? How is the "menu" of
>>>>>>>>>>> things that I can vote for created?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> By you, in case you find 500 people signing your program. (Well,
>>>>>>>>>> that the method here). Of course, it does no more work when the
>>>>>>>>>> bandits got the power. But that is lack of democracy, not democracy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But it's not just the bandits, it's also game theory. Modern
>>>>>>>>> democracies suffer from a strong tendency to become Keynesian beauty
>>>>>>>>> contests. Very easily the optimal strategy for the big parties
>>>>>>>>> becomes a move to the average opinion. Some people say this is a good
>>>>>>>>> thing. I think it's a dangerous thing because it's self-reinforcing
>>>>>>>>> and because consensus and truth are very different things.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is why science is not democracy, but politics is not science, and
>>>>>>>> consensus has no rôle. But democracies accept multiple temporary
>>>>>>>> consensus. You have the choice to be with the gouvernment or with the
>>>>>>>> opposition and with some hope, with the next government. Without
>>>>>>>> democracy, you have to wait the death of the rulers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So I think removing the bandits is not enough. It is also necessary
>>>>>>>>> to analyse the democratic system scientifically and understand the
>>>>>>>>> incentives it creates.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But in the human sphere, science asks only for more modesty and
>>>>>>>> acceptance of the unknown, and to some flexibility. Then we can think
>>>>>>>> and ameliorate the democracy. Sure. At no time will everyone be
>>>>>>>> satisfied, but democracy allows change, and satisfaction of a
>>>>>>>> majority, when it works of course.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with making attacks on "democracy" tabu is that it also
>>>>>>>>>>> the discussion of the above questions also becomes tabu. Just
>>>>>>>>>>> because we have a democratic system doesn't mean we have a good
>>>>>>>>>>> one, from the infinite set of possible democratic system.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes. democracy is necessary, but nver sufficient. democracy is the
>>>>>>>>>> start, and it can be improved, unlike all other systems known.
>>>>>>>>>> Unless you have a better idea, but usually, those against democracy
>>>>>>>>>> are either utopic belief in the nature of the humans, or want to
>>>>>>>>>> impose a way of life to everybody. I think.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Telmo.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2014-12-16 15:44 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15 Dec 2014, at 19:51, LizR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in principle. Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do things for everyone else (the NHS, conservation, social
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> security, infrastructure, regulations, police, army science etc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc). Yet all I can see here is people saying that it doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work. I think the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't work. The NHS (despite everything) was one of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> greatest achievements of the 20th century, after all. And it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was introduced by a government because of its beliefs and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> principles.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree completely with you. Like academies, democracies are the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worst except for anything else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many people criticize the system, and this *benefits* those who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pervert the system. Our democracies are sick (and partially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hijacked by corporatist interests), but this needs we must heal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them, not condemn it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alberto.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Alberto.
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Alberto.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Alberto.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> Alberto.
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