On 16 Sep 2016, at 15:41, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 1:52 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List
<everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over
biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second.
I think that its more an attempt to calm the nervous system, by
focused
relaxation. Its the amygdala's way of quieting the fight-flight
process of
the amygdala, and using the cerebrum to do this. .
Sure, but the implications of this relaxation can be deep, depending
on your model of what consciousness is.
It can also be a deep personal experience, and here we enter
non-communicable territory. Trying to communicate the non-communicable
leads to Bruno's "theological trap" or, as it is more commonly known,
organized religion.
Lao-Ze said: the wise stays mute, the fool talks.
Wittgenstein said that we should not speak about what we can't speak
about.
Damascius wrote 3000 pages to explain that when talking about the
ineffable even just one sentence is too much and miss the point.
Of course this leads immediately to a paradox. We can ask to
Wittgenstein what are you talking about?
We can ask to Damascius if 3000 pages might not been far worse than
one sentence?
And point to Lao-Ze that he is talking right now ...
Computationalism gives a way out, by CONTINUALLY reminding that
computationalism requires an act of faith, and that its truth does not
belong to any scientific theory, not even as an axiom. The
contradiction if prevented by only communicating conditional
sentences, like: "IF comp is true and if x is a self-referentially
correct machine, then ...".
It is the separation between G* and G which handle well that
"paradox", and, if well understood, prevents computationalist
theologian to fall in the theological trap.
To take the simplest example, the machine cannot prove <>t, nor can
she proves that, that is ~[]<>t, but she can prove that IF she is
consistent, then she can't prove that she is consistent (<>t -> ~[]<>t).
Bruno
-----Original Message-----
From: Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2016 3:52 am
Subject: Re: Non-Evolutionary Superintelligences Do Nothing,
Eventually
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 13 Sep 2016, at 11:47, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:00 AM, John Clark
<johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote:
We know that humans are capable of choosing self-destruction.
It is
also obvious that most don't
I would argue that given the proper circumstances anybody would
choose
self
destruction.
I just saw a documentary about 911, it showed people jumping to
their
death
out of windows. I believe if I was faced with a choice between
living
for
an
additional minute or two in searing pain as I burned to death
and the
only
other alternative I too would determine that jumping from the
95th floor
was
the more attractive option.
Yes, I agree.
and as a human you probably feel a
strong resistance against harming yourself. Where does this
resistance
come from? Our brains where evolved to have it.
But why evolve brains at all? Why not hard wire us on how to
behave in
every
conceivable circumstance? Because the human genome is only 3
billion
base
pares long, and if it were a hundred thousand million billion
trillion
times
as big it would still be ridiculously too small for that. So
Evolution
had
to invent brains and give it a rather vague and general command
"do the
best you can to figure out a way to get your genes into the next
generation". But like a good lawyer that brain was able to find
lots and
lots of loopholes in that poorly written command, and hence we
have
suicide
and birth control pills and people wasting time (from
Evolution's point
of
view) looking for a quantum theory of gravity instead of looking
for a
satisfactory mate. Not every, or even not most, aspects of human
behavior
can be predicted from evolutionary theory.
I agree.
We are getting better and better at utility function
self-modification. However, we still embedded in a process that
actively resists certain modifications (in the long term).
Further, we
are fighting an unequal fight. We are in the situation of your
Jupiter
Brain, that cannot fully understand itself.
In my "designed superintelligence" scenario, the entity is
confronted
with a protection mechanism that was conceived by a lesser
intelligence. Notice that it will still suffer from the Jupiter
Brain
problem otherwise. Suppose it's a neural network: adaptation in
neural
network learning can generate tremendous complexity. This is
already
the case: deep learning works really well but nobody really knows
for
sure what it is doing. But if we want the designed AI to follow
certain rules, we are the ones setting the rules and we are the
ones
trying to prevent it from changing them.
Mutations that go
against this feature are weeded out.
A mutation to kill yourself before that age of puberty even
under normal
environmental conditions would be weeded out, but things are
usually far
more subtle than that.
I agree that it is much more subtle than that. My point is that
evolutionary pressure resists total inertia. It somehow creates
entities that are compelled to play the game, even if only for
awhile.
I think you illustrate what I have called once the "theological
trap",
which
is also well debated on hot discussion between zen buddhists, and
eventually
related to what is called (by some) the last step of the
illumination
(enlightenment), which is after "having gone there" (the blissful
state
out
of time and space, say), you have still to "come back to the
village".
Yes. Meditation to me feels like an attempt to gain control over
biology. Or perhaps just to make biology shut up for a second.
For genuinely doing that you have to abandon the most precious
thing you
have always searched, somehow, and/or stay mute on what you would
like to
share the most (with the risk that you talk to much and that stupid
parrots
will repeat what you said without understanding for generations and
generations).
A.k.a. "New Age" :) But also all the religions, of course.
Biology, psychology and theology can differ a lot on the "utility
function",
and can oppose each other at different level. That is why
consistency
requires some amount of silence and muteness if we want to be
successful
on
the different planes.
There are transfinite lattice of competence degrees, most
incomparable in
strength, so there will always been matter to come back to the
village,
and
the village has no ends. But "there" the wise know, but cannot
say, that
utility is futile. Oops! Well, something like that should be a
theorem of
G*
minus G, identifying wiseness with self-referential correctness.
Very complex subject, which I think is already quite hot in the
soul of
all
universal numbers. I think we can link it also to the problem of
euthanasia
(which I think should better not been permitted in states having
medication
prohibition laws).
I agree it's complex. In this modest paper I just try to show that
the
current ideas about creating superintelligent slaves (they usually
say, "superintelligence that respects human values") are absurd.
Telmo.
Bruno
Telmo.
John K Clark
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