> On 25 Jul 2018, at 12:30, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:29:58 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>> On 24 Jul 2018, at 21:53, agrays...@gmail.com <javascript:> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 6:37:19 PM UTC, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>>
>>
>> Le mar. 24 juil. 2018 à 20:30, <agrays...@gmail.com <>> a écrit :
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 12:58:43 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>> On 24 Jul 2018, at 09:19, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 4:27:03 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 20 Jul 2018, at 23:12, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 10:17:04 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 20 Jul 2018, at 04:40, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Nevertheless, I still stand with Schroedinger that in any quantum
>>>>> superposition, other than for slit experiments, the system cannot be in
>>>>> all eigenstates simultaneously before measurement.
>>>>
>>>> Then you can no more explain the working of an interferometer, or
>>>> polariser, or even the structure of the hydrogen atoms, molecules, etc.
>>>> You are just saying that QM works for the double slit, but not for
>>>> anything else. That is contrary to the fact that QM has just never been
>>>> shown wrong, at any scale and level.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but I see you have no clue what I have been claiming in this
>>>> thread. Although I infer that English isn't your native language, you know
>>>> it well enough to understand my claim; yet you do NOT. How can you expect
>>>> to posit new theories about reality, such as based on arithmetic, if you
>>>> are unable to understand simple English?
>>>>
>>>> OK, let me start again. I am NOT questioning the CALCULATED results of QM.
>>>
>>>
>>> That is ambiguous. Is it SWE + COLLAPSE, or just SWE (+ Mechanism) ?
>>>
>>> That you ask this question, shows you still have no clue what I am arguing
>>> about. Thanks for your time. AG
>>
>>
>> What are you arguing about? I’m afraid you are unclear in many of your
>> replies, including to others. But you seem to believe that there is no
>> superposition,
>>
>> I never claimed that, never. You have no clue what I am arguing. NONE! AG
>>
>> Could you use a bigger font and a redder color? Because it's too small for
>> us to read... Also please stop taking time to explain yourself it is as we
>> all know useless, instead I propose for you to directly insult people in
>> blinking red 66pt sized font... It will be at last interesting.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> How many times do I have to state that I was objecting NOT to superposition
>> per se, but to its INTERPRETATION until Bruno understands? We use
>> superpositions to calculate probabilities, which obviously works, but why do
>> the Masters of the Universe assume a system in a superposition of
>> eigenstates (which, btw, are orthogonal, so no mutual interference, and form
>> a basis) is SIMULTANEOUSLY in all component states when the base is NOT
>> unique? I don't see that claim or hypothesis used in solving standard
>> quantum problems, such as the H-atom, tunneling, etc., so it seems
>> SUPERFLUOUS and leads to problems such as a cat which is alive and dead
>> simultaneously. AG
>
>
>
> I am just mentioning the superposition principle, the one Dirac said to be
> the essence and the mystery of quantum mechanics. QM is just the empirical
> discovery that the linear sum of two physical states is still a physical
> state.
>
> Not true. In classical E&M, one can add two plane wave solutions, and get
> another solution to ME’s.
Yes indeed. The superposition notion comes from the fact that a wave added to a
wave is a wave. Now, with classical EM, those are typical physical waves, like
on the sea. But QM describes everything by wave, which are hard to interpret.
They describe amplitude of probability. Only the quake of the amplitude gives
the probability, and that led to the “many-worlds”, due to the fact that the
amplitude is physically real with objective sharable consequence.
> Also, you seem averse to violating the SoL, which is understandable, but why
> don't you object to classical plane wave solutions? Don't you think a FTL
> phenomenon must exist to create the wave at infinity, along the plane,
> extended forever?
I don’t think so. It is only the collapse of the entire wave which would entail
a FTL event. That is why I tend to be skeptical such a collapse occurs,
especially that the SWE explains why a collapse has to *seem* to occur from the
observer relative position in the universal wave.
> Finally, FWIW, the mystery of QM is its probability prediction, which is
> *different* from what one would expect classically. This is because the wf is
> complex, and because the probability is calculated by taking the
> norm-squared, one gets a different prediction for the interference, which
> manifests mathematically by the existence of cross terms. AG
Indeed, and the cross term invites us to take Feynman many path, or Dirac
superposition as physical reality.
>
> That has been verified directly and indirectly by molecular and atomic
> physics, and even black hole and cosmology. It is not a question of
> interpretation: it is a fact that a state like up+down will pass with
> probability one a “polariser” (analyser) measuring in the base {up+down,
> up-down}, and that is not the case for a mixture of up and down particles,
> each of which pass with a probability 1/2.
>
> Before discussing any interpretation, we need to agree on the theory we are
> using. I am discussing Everett theory, which is Copenhagen minus the collapse
> postulate. Without the collapse postulate, no superposition ever reducse into
> a singular state projection. That contradicts the quantum linearity.
>
> Being a pure state like “up” is always relative to an instrument measure. All
> state are superposition when develop in other bases, and those are real, we
> can test them. A state like up is really up’ + down’. That is exploited in
> quantum computing, where some algorithm can superposed many computations at
> once, and, despite we cannot observe each individual result, we can test
> global information on all results, like "are they all the same or different?
> or question of parity of results, etc.
>
> The so called “many-world” interpretation is just QM-without-collapse taken
> seriously. No need to add some metaphysical world(s) here or there. A world
> can be defined by just any completion of a state that we can measure, but it
> is an open problem if that exists (except with mechanism: we have good reason
> to disbelieve such worlds).
>
> The instrumentalist idea that the superposition are only tools to calculate
> probabilities was inspiring a long time ago, but it does not work. Nature
> confirms their physicalness, notably by testing the observable difference
> between mixed state and superposition. We can add hidden variable, or Bohm’s
> Guiding particles Potential, but this has been shown to lead to FTL (even
> instantaneous) influence(*) and other magic things or to many-worlds.
>
> In my opinion, you are just saying that the physical reality do not obey
> Everett quantum mechanics, i.e. that some collapse occurs somewhere,
> instantaneously.
>
> I never discussed collapse, one way or another. I just claim that there is
> apparently no justification for the Copenhagen(?) INTERPRETATION of
> superposition in QM.
It is a new axiom in the theory, before leading to any interpretation. I agree
with you, the collapse is just a coquetry added to avoid being oneself and the
(local) physical reality multiplied. But there is no experimental evidence for
such a collapse, and it entails FTL, indeterminacy. With the SWE without
collapse, the probabilities come only from the impossibility to know which
branch of the universal wave we are in, like with mechanism we cannot know
which computations support us. QM confirms Mechanism here.
> I have asked for the justification many times, but no takers.
In this list, few people believe in a collapse.
> I don't think they can justify it. Of course, generally, postulates are not
> amenable to justification, but in the case of superposition, the
> interpretation I object to has a unique property; it's never applied in a
> calculation!
That makes no sense. I can’t explain neither the two slits, nor the working of
an interferometer, nor the hydrogen atom, nor anything, without the
superposition principle. The collapse is never used, but the superposition is
just a consequence of the fact that state are represented by wave, or by
“vector” in a Hilbert space (which mainly a linear (vectorial) space with some
scalar product).
> It just creates contradictions.
Where?
> Nor do I discuss Everett insofar as it's the dumbest theory I have ever heard
> or, or can imagine.
Everett theory is just the SWE. It is the addition of the collapse which is the
“dumb” move, I would say.
Bruno
> AG
>
> In 1927 Einstein gave a simple thought experience, the one particle in a
> sphere, and explain that if the collapse is physical, it has to violate
> special relativity. Hs EPR paper is closer to an experimental treatment, as
> Bell has shown, and QM seems to be vindicate, so the choice is really
> between many-worlds, or the abandon of special relativity (or the bandit that
> QM says anything about the physical reality).
>
> Bruno
>
>
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