Hi Cosmin, On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 08:42, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote: > 1) Oh, I'm clearly not making that mistake. When I talk about emergence, I > talk about ontological emergence, not the hand-waving epistemic kind that > people usually talk about. The emergence that I'm talking about is the > emergence of new qualia on top of previously existing qualia. This is what my > book is about. So it's the real deal. Alternatively, have a look at my > presentation from the Science & Nonduality conference where I talk about The > Emergent Structure of Consciousness, where I talk about ontological emergence > and I specifically mention to the audience that the epistemic emergence is > false: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jMAy6ft-ZQ > And what realizes the ontological emergence is self-reference through its > property of looking-back-at-itself, with looking-back becoming more than > itself, like in the cover of the book.
Ok, I saw your presentation. We agree on several things, but I don't quite get your qualia emergence idea. The things you describe make sense, for example the dissolution of meaning by repetition, but what makes you think that this is anything more than an observation in the domain of the cognitive sciences? Or, putting it another way, and observation / model on how our cognitive processes work? > > 2) Consciousness is not mysterious. And this is exactly what my book is > doing: demystifying consciousness. If you decide to read my book, you will > gain at the end of it a clarity of thinking through these issues that all > people should have such that they will stop making the confusions that robots > are alive. I don't mean to discourage or attack you in anyway, but one in a while someone with a book to promote shows up in this mailing list. No problem with me, I have promoted some of my work sometimes. My problem is with "if you read my book...". There are many books to read, please give the main ideas. Then I might read it. > > 3) No, they are not extraordinarily claims. They are quite trivial. And they > start from the trivial realization that the brain does not exist. The "brain" > is just an idea in consciousness. I have no problem with "the brain is just an idea in consciousess". I am not sure if this type of claim can be verified, or if it falls into the category of things we cannot assert, as Bruno would say. I do tend to think privately in those terms. So ok, the brain does not exist. It is just a bunch of qualia in consciousness. But this is then true of every single thing! Again, no problem with this, but also no reason to abandon science. The machine doesn't exist either, but its elections (that don't exist either) follow a certain pattern of behavior that we call the laws of physics. Why not the electrons in the brain? What's the difference? Telmo. > > On Wednesday, 17 April 2019 03:06:45 UTC+3, telmo wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, at 18:42, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote: >>> Because Rover is just a bunch of atoms. Is nothing more than the sum of >>> atoms. But in the case of self-reference/emergence, each new level is more >>> than the sum of the previous levels. >> 1) > >> >> I disagree. My position on this is that people are tricked into thinking >> that emergence has some ontological status, when if fact it is just an >> epistemological tool. We need to think in higher-order structures to >> simplify things (organisms, organs, mean-fields, cells, ant colonies, >> societies, markets, etc), but a Jupiter-brain could keep track of every >> entity separately and apprehend the entire thing at the same time. Emergence >> is a mental shortcut. >> >> Self-reference is another matter (pun was accidental). >> >>> >>> I don't know how you can trick yourself so badly into believing that if you >>> put some rocks together, the rocks become alive. Maybe because you think >>> that the brain is just a bunch of atoms. No, it is now. If you were to >>> measure what the electrons are doing in the brain, you would see that they >>> are not moving according to known physics, but they are being moved by >>> consciousness. >> 2) >> >> >> For me, this is yet another version of "God did it". There is no point in >> attempting to explain some complex behavior if the explanation is even more >> complex and mysterious. >> >>> And this doesn't happen in a machine. In a machine, electrons move >>> according to known physics. >> >> 3) >> >> These are fairly extraordinary claims. Do you have any empirical data to >> support them? >> >> Telmo. >> >>> >>> On Tuesday, 16 April 2019 15:25:40 UTC+3, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>> >>>> How can you argue that Rover has no knowledge, when you say that knowledge >>>> is not formalisable? >>>> >>>> Introducing some fuzziness to claim a negative thing about a relation of >>>> the type consciousness/machine is a bit frightening. It reminds the >>>> catholic older sophisticated “reasoning” to assert that Indians have no >>>> soul. >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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