On Fri, 13 Sept 2024 at 18:25, Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 6:12 PM Stathis Papaioannou <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> On Fri, 13 Sept 2024 at 17:30, Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 5:23 PM Stathis Papaioannou <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, 13 Sept 2024 at 15:08, Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 1:07 PM Liz R <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't think that works. The idea often put forward is something >>>>>>> along the lines of self-locating uncertainty -- out of all the branches, >>>>>>> which one am I on? But that is only apparent randomness, and to get >>>>>>> such an >>>>>>> idea to work, you need to be able to make a random choice between >>>>>>> branches. >>>>>>> Such randomness will be intrinsic in that It doesn't come from anywhere >>>>>>> else (it is not already part of the theory). So in order to generate >>>>>>> such >>>>>>> apparent randomness you actually need an independent source of intrinsic >>>>>>> randomness (to be able to make your self-locating choice.) >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The intrinsic randomness arises from the fact that it is impossible >>>>>> to predict which branch you will end up in, even for an omniscient being. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That is just a restatement of the traditional measurement problem. >>>>> Self-locating uncertainty is not intrinsic randomness. What is it that >>>>> selects which branch you are actually on? You need some means of random >>>>> selection which is not included in the underlying theory. You have to add, >>>>> by hand, some additional principle of randomness, such as the Born Rule. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Nothing selects which branch you will be on, since with certainty a >>>> version of you will end up in each branch. If the omniscient being predicts >>>> that you will end up in branch A, the prediction is wrong for the version >>>> of you in branch B, and if the omniscient being predicts that you will end >>>> up in branch B the prediction is wrong for the version of you in branch A. >>>> It is logically impossible to make an accurate prediction. >>>> >>> >>> It is unfortunate, therefore, that all real experiments result in just >>> one answer, which is the nub of the measurement problem. Which answer is >>> unpredictable, but that does not mean that there can be some omniscient >>> being that can predict your result. It is a matter of an intrinsic >>> probability -- *viz*. the Born Rule. >>> >> >> The branching makes the outcome fundamentally unpredictable, which is >> what randomness is. >> > > That is not randomness. Unpredictability might be a consequence of > randomness, but they are not the same thing. > Maybe they are. It is subject to debate. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chance-randomness/ > > It results from the branching and nothing else. It is not specific to QM >> or MWI: it results from any process where the observer branches. >> > > The problem with this approach is that it takes no account of probability. > I can arrange things so that the probability of a particular result is, > say, 0.7, and this can be verified with repeated experiments. If it is just > a matter of the branching, then the probability is unity on every trial. So > unpredictability and/or branching, in themselves, cannot account for > probability. > > Bruce > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAFxXSLR71PjO_GSyZBuSAWUAR2553Wo8rvHc2aDGC9_8joMkHw%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAFxXSLR71PjO_GSyZBuSAWUAR2553Wo8rvHc2aDGC9_8joMkHw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAH%3D2ypVL3u6P3NU56UkDdf0Vg6WXFJN2RcR6C_S%2B_gBo7cAirw%40mail.gmail.com.
