Misha, Thanks for your stand for honesty. You have made me really think about my actions in some other matters. Randy.
--- On Fri, 2/20/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Expat Digest, Vol 52, Issue 29 To: [email protected] Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 1:34 AM Send Expat mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Expat digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: iPhone (Charles Borden) 2. Re: Expat List Spanish tutor (daria laptenok) 3. RE: bank trouble. (Jim Kingston) 4. Re: Expat List Re: iPhone (Kimberly Zenz) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:22:21 +0300 From: Charles Borden <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Expat List Re: iPhone To: The Moscow Expat List <[email protected]> Message-ID: <c5c329ae.6b720%[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Misha: A criminal act and a breach of contract are very different things. One can be sued for breach of a contract, but this is a civil matter and not criminal (i.e. illegal). Software piracy (which means making and selling pirated software and dvds for instance) is criminal in many countries. Selling counterfeit wine, vodka, clothing or watches is also criminal in many countries. Modification of legally purchased software (or hardware) is done all the time for instance when I add a plug-in for Firefox and I don¹t believe this is even a breach of contract, never mind illegal (i.e. criminal). With respect to the iPhone, if a site such as the popular www.ziphone.org was engaging in criminal acts or if Apple thought that they could be successful in a civil court, the site could have had the site shut down. Ziphone as well as other such companies are still operating. There is nothing counterfeit or pirated in their software. The pre-G3 iPhones were sold without a phone contract in the US. Misha, if you were driving in Moscow on a two lane road, with your lane divided from the oncoming lane by two white lines. A truck is stalled in the lane in front of you and it looks like you will sit for hours waiting for it to clear. There is no oncoming traffic. Do you cross the two white lines to go around the truck? In Russia this is an ³administrative offense² (though apparently not a criminal matter), however you could lose your drivers license for 6 months for crossing the lines. I guess you would not only wait behind the truck, but also get out of your car and lecture other drivers who try to go around the truck about the law. The unblocking of an iPhone is almost certainly not criminal, probably not even a civil matter and certainly doesn¹t elevate the person doing so for his or her personal use to a mass murderer. CB On 2/19/09 11:43 AM, "Misha (Hotmail)" <[email protected]> wrote: > Charles, > Indeed making changes to the phone software is a criminal act. This probably > does not apply to Russia, but in the usa one can easily be sued for damages > (lost revenue, intellectual property, etc.). iphone software is no different > from windows or the office; therefore the same rules apply. asking someone for > a product key for an unlicensed copy of software is illegal. indeed, its > unethical. > > If I am not mistaken, you have passion for wines? So if I ask you to get me a > dozen of cases of crapy russian wine, 144 rare french wine labels and a > contact who can peel of the original and glue on the "fake" label would you > help me? How would that make you feel? > And what if I ask you... Charles, can you help me sell the "fake" wine? What > would you do? > > Respectfully, > > Misha > > [email protected] > www.fandorin.com <http://www.fandorin.com> > > > > From: Charles Borden <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 1:33 PM > To: The Moscow Expat List <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Expat List Re: iPhone > > Misha: > I do take offense at your generalizations about expats in your return message > to me and its implications. My simple response to your initial message about > iPhones was to correct your erroneous message to the expat list and the > implication it contained. > > You used the word ³illegal² - this implies a criminal act and hacking the > iphone is not a criminal act. It may, in some cases (and only if some cases) > breach a contract with the seller of the iphone in another country. > > With respect to the pre-G3 iPhones that were brought to Russia, these iPhones > were sold without a phone contract in the US and it was not until the G3 phone > was released that a phone service contract became necessary. Any person could > buy a pre-G3 phone at a US iPhone store. If they needed phone service they > then signed up online with AT&T though there was no requirement that they do > so. In this way Apple sold millions of phones to Russia and China, essentially > with the help of hackers. > > With respect to G3 phones, they were sold with a contract in the US, but it is > cheaper to buy a new phone in Russia (22,000 rubles) than a locked phone with > a contract in the US (about $2,000) and the only people who have the phones > converted usually are already paying a contract in another country. They > simply also wish to use the phone with a Russian service on their iPhone as > well while they are here. Since they are paying the US contract anyway they > are not breaching any contracts and certainly are not performing criminal > acts. > > For someone who wants to use a G3 iPhone in the US with any GSM provider it is > now better to buy an unlocked phone in Russia at 22000 rubles (about $650) > that can be freely used in the US without a long term contract. > > I cannot speak for phones from other countries such as Germany or UK but > assume similar economics. Some countries in fact have required that Apple sell > unlocked phones charging that Apple is unfairly restricting competition. > > Charles > > > > On 2/17/09 6:34 PM, "Misha (Live)" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Charles, >> >> I do not want to spark another heated discussion so I reply to directly to >> you. >> I apologize in advance if you find this email offensive. >> I have a feeling you know why the iphone come locked so there is no reason >> to beat on the dead horse. if someone to wants to unlock the phone they can >> do 1 of 2 things: >> - jail break the phone >> - pay the full retail price of the phone >> >> there is no other option. period. >> the name of the first option suggest that the action deals with something >> illegal. and why would someone ever promote and suggest something illegal? >> is it because we live in russia and its quiet normal for people to engage in >> activity that leads to that? frankly everyone who openly suggested on ways >> to unlock the phone suck. it all starts small, somewhat innocent, but what >> will be next? Hopefully not along these lines: I raped a teenage girl and >> need advice on how to escape punishment? >> I am sick of expats coming to Russia and not promoting truth and honesty. I >> am sick of loser expats, who can't achieve anything at home, come to Russia >> and be proud for bribing police and government officials. There is a role >> that all of us should play to make Russia a better place. You need to play >> your role too. So if you say nothing you will will at least look smarter. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Misha >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Expat mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > http://www.expat.ru/forum/ > > _______________________________________________ > Expat mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > http://www.expat.ru/forum/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.lists.ru/pipermail/expat/attachments/20090219/a6a68c2d/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:31:08 +0200 From: daria laptenok <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Expat List Spanish tutor To: The Moscow Expat List <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Olga, would you love to have instructions provided in Russian or English? If in Russian, I can reccoment you a teacher with very-very reasonable price, she charge me 300 RUR per 45 min as a friend, so I assume it can like 350-400 for you. But she is not native. But very good. Yours, Daria. 2009/2/18 Olga Puntus <[email protected]> > Dear all, > > could someone, please, recommend a good dedicated (not too expensive) > Spanish language tutor / instructor (intermediate-later advanced level), > preferable a native speaker, for one-on-one classes?! > > I would like to start twice-three times a week private tutoring from March, > 2009. > > Thanks a lot, Olga > > > > _______________________________________________ > Expat mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > http://www.expat.ru/forum/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.lists.ru/pipermail/expat/attachments/20090219/57a018c8/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:04:52 +0300 From: "Jim Kingston" <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Expat List bank trouble. To: "'The Moscow Expat List'" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <009901c99292$a7868020$6f57a...@usere88da33eb7> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On the subject of Raiffaisen, my wife has been trying for some time now to get sense on the phone about the money she had invested with them. At the time of the low point on the Moscow Stock Market it was still about $23,000 (down from a much higher amount). When she finally went there today in person they, after about 1 hour of messing about and passing her from person to person, simply said there was virtually no money left at all - it had all been lost except for a couple of hundred dollars! Anybody else having problems - do I believe them?? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Human Resources Sent: 19 February 2009 11:16 To: [email protected] Subject: !!***SPAM***!! Expat List unlocking 3g iphone and (possibly) bank trouble. the issue is largely an imagined one, go to Gorbushka, ask ANY of the guys, and they will do it on a "success" basis. I had mine unlocked, know people who did, I am not aware of many unsuccessful attempts. Just make sure you write down the number of your phone so you get YOURS back or just stand there and watch. or, easier yet, go on youtube, and they will walk you through the process with videos. :) As to legality of unlocking, there is an issue of a contract that you sign, but it's mostly a moral issue, generally in the U.S. and Europe, the cell companies very heavily subsidize your phone to get you as a customer. if you don't then become their customer, it IS kind of cheating. However, if in Russia you are charged over 1000USD for an iPhone, it's very hard to see what subsidy you are receiving and what MORAL obligation you incur as a result. Funny incident, went to Raiffaisen today and they gave me a hard time about withdrawing $15,000. Trouble in paradise? I know that VTB24 won't give more than 5,000 in SKV without prior notice, but good ol' Raiffaisen. Yikes. _______________________________________________ Expat mailing list [email protected] http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat http://www.expat.ru/forum/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.0/1959 - Release Date: 02/18/09 20:55:00 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 08:15:54 -0500 From: Kimberly Zenz <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Expat List Re: iPhone To: The Moscow Expat List <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Misha, This is not true. Unlocking one's cell phone in the US has been legal since 2006. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2006/11/8280.ars This is because the restrictions were abased on a business model - they had nothing to do with copyrights or other protections. In Russia it is my understanding that no laws were ever passed ot prohibit unlocking phones, in part because industry-wide locking them seems to be mostly US phenomenon (although my prepaid phone is Austria ia also locked). There is a moral question related to the price being discounted in order to make money off of the contract, but that applies more to promotions such as "free phone with service contract." The iPhone sells for 300 USD. The ipod touch, essentially an iphone without calling capabilities or claling plan, sells for 229, and I'm pretty sure that the iPod touch is working a helathy profit into that 229 price. The original iPhone was 399, and I doubt the phone part really cost the 170 USD more that Apple charged for the added access to cell phone service. The new 3G now costs 199, which is 30 USD less than the iPod touch's full profit-included selling price, but in return, you are required to join a calling plan that wil cost you 2K total. All of this is a good business model, and I'd do it too if I were Apple, but going your own way to make a phone that you already own work in your new country is hardly immoral, and certainly not illegal. This is meant to be a helpful message board for expats to navigate life in Moscow, not a sniping contest over perceived moral failings. It isnt illegal to unlock your phone, where it was made or here, and it isn't immoral. Apple sold it the phone, and it is now the owner's, not Apple's. The owner is now not using Apple's preferred service because Apple isn't making it available here, and fixing it so that one can use it in one's new home is not illegal, or immoral. Even if it were, this isn't a legal board. Its a mailing list for civil, helpful adults. Can we all move on now? 2009/2/19 Misha (Hotmail) <[email protected]>: > Charles, > Indeed making changes to the phone software is a criminal act. This probably > does not apply to Russia, but in the usa one can easily be sued for damages > (lost revenue, intellectual property, etc.). iphone software is no different > from windows or the office; therefore the same rules apply. asking someone > for a product key for an unlicensed copy of software is illegal. indeed, its > unethical. > > If I am not mistaken, you have passion for wines? So if I ask you to get me > a dozen of cases of crapy russian wine, 144 rare french wine labels and a > contact who can peel of the original and glue on the "fake" label would you > help me? How would that make you feel? > And what if I ask you... Charles, can you help me sell the "fake" wine? What > would you do? > > Respectfully, > > Misha > > [email protected] > www.fandorin.com > > > From: Charles Borden > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 1:33 PM > To: The Moscow Expat List > Subject: Expat List Re: iPhone > Misha: > I do take offense at your generalizations about expats in your return > message to me and its implications. My simple response to your initial > message about iPhones was to correct your erroneous message to the expat > list and the implication it contained. > > You used the word "illegal" - this implies a criminal act and hacking the > iphone is not a criminal act. It may, in some cases (and only if some cases) > breach a contract with the seller of the iphone in another country. > > With respect to the pre-G3 iPhones that were brought to Russia, these > iPhones were sold without a phone contract in the US and it was not until > the G3 phone was released that a phone service contract became necessary. > Any person could buy a pre-G3 phone at a US iPhone store. If they needed > phone service they then signed up online with AT&T though there was no > requirement that they do so. In this way Apple sold millions of phones to > Russia and China, essentially with the help of hackers. > > With respect to G3 phones, they were sold with a contract in the US, but it > is cheaper to buy a new phone in Russia (22,000 rubles) than a locked phone > with a contract in the US (about $2,000) and the only people who have the > phones converted usually are already paying a contract in another country. > They simply also wish to use the phone with a Russian service on their > iPhone as well while they are here. Since they are paying the US contract > anyway they are not breaching any contracts and certainly are not performing > criminal acts. > > For someone who wants to use a G3 iPhone in the US with any GSM provider it > is now better to buy an unlocked phone in Russia at 22000 rubles (about > $650) that can be freely used in the US without a long term contract. > > I cannot speak for phones from other countries such as Germany or UK but > assume similar economics. Some countries in fact have required that Apple > sell unlocked phones charging that Apple is unfairly restricting > competition. > > Charles > > > > On 2/17/09 6:34 PM, "Misha (Live)" <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Charles, > > I do not want to spark another heated discussion so I reply to directly to > you. > I apologize in advance if you find this email offensive. > I have a feeling you know why the iphone come locked so there is no reason > to beat on the dead horse. if someone to wants to unlock the phone they can > do 1 of 2 things: > - jail break the phone > - pay the full retail price of the phone > > there is no other option. period. > the name of the first option suggest that the action deals with something > illegal. and why would someone ever promote and suggest something illegal? > is it because we live in russia and its quiet normal for people to engage in > activity that leads to that? frankly everyone who openly suggested on ways > to unlock the phone suck. it all starts small, somewhat innocent, but what > will be next? Hopefully not along these lines: I raped a teenage girl and > need advice on how to escape punishment? > I am sick of expats coming to Russia and not promoting truth and honesty. I > am sick of loser expats, who can't achieve anything at home, come to Russia > and be proud for bribing police and government officials. There is a role > that all of us should play to make Russia a better place. You need to play > your role too. So if you say nothing you will will at least look smarter. > > Cheers, > > Misha > > > ________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Expat mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > http://www.expat.ru/forum/ > > _______________________________________________ > Expat mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > http://www.expat.ru/forum/ > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Expat mailing list [email protected] http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat End of Expat Digest, Vol 52, Issue 29 *************************************
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