Mr Reinhardt??? My teachers used to call me that???
Dave the only problem I have with the comments regarding bike motors, is
most the info posted here is wrong.
We seem to be getting into a p#$^ing contest here, I don't care to indulged,
I just want to keep the facts straight.
600cc Bike motors, ebay $2000 or less complete with all electronics, check
it yourself
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2003-Honda-CBR600RR-Engine-Motor-Low-Miles-Car-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35595QQihZ010QQitemZ200016388862QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
That's a complete "Car Kit" motor for $600.
A new engine only from Honda is S0010mee005 and about $5100.
A "spec" series as you put is what the AMA has been running for more that 10
years, it's pretty easy to tech, shoot me a private email, I'll be happy to
tell you how.
These supersport motors ARE RACE MOTORS, the AMA requires them to run stock
compression in supersport/superstock trim.
As far as the future..................................
CR
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Dave, you have issues!!!! Lighten up! .................... Please
> confine your responses to the topic of Formula 500. Irrelevant and
> inflammatory statements serve no useful purpose. Disagree with me all you
> want but, please don't analyze me and I promise not to analyze you.
Mr. Reinhardt,
You are either missing the point or avoiding it.
I am but one vote and my vote will NEVER endorse a bike motor in this class.
There are too many sled motors, both 2- and 4-cycle that should be
considered FIRST. These cars were designed around sled motors. Until
snowmobiles go away, I believe we should NOT avoid what I believe is best
for the class. I believe that ANY sled motor would be a simpler and more
straightforward conversion than ANY bike motor for obvious reasons.
I can compare anything I wish; just like you. However I wasn't comparing
the auto motors to bike motors; I was comparing classes to classes. I do
not want to race in a spec class. Policing a nightmare such as what you
describe would be tantamount to a spec class. SCCA already HAS spec
classes. If you wish to go slower and spend more money, they're waiting for
you. If you want to discuss SEALED motors, we should probably start a new
thread. I'll oppose that idea, too.
I'm no hot shot driver and I don't have the best equipment but, I've been
knocking around SCCA long enough to know how the club works. When a motor
has to appear stock, "stock" must be defined, approved, and kept within
conformance. We use stock motors now. Let me tell you about "stock" and
STOCK. If I buy a motor from the Rotax supplier, it comes factory assembled
ready to race. If I want an "edge," I'll buy a motor from a motor builder
that buys pistons, for example, by the case, weighs them and pairs them by
weight (even done it some myself). Now, just s'pose we decide to use this
bike motor you are pushing so hard. NOW, those same motor builders will
mike cams, test springs, check balance on cranks, weigh valves, AND weigh
pistons. And, guess what? I bet that motor builder will charge more for
his services, too. You are absolutely right about going to junk yards and
picking a motor up for relatively nothing. However, you won't win with it,
sir. If you doubt me, check with the DSR guys. That's what they do and
they're only two cylinders and five years ahead of you. A junkyard 4
cylinder bike motor sells for anywhere from $1,000-$3,500. A "built" motor
starts at $10k, depending upon builder.
I do NOT agree with what you are implying that ALL bike motors were built to
race. If so, their compression would ALL be much higher. You are
suggesting bike motors and ONLY bike motors for what reason I do not know.
I only know that there are other sources of motors IF WE EXHAUST ALL SLED
MOTOR ALTERNATIVES. What about (both 2- and 4-cycle) jet ski motors?
In my opinion, the ONLY way a bike motor could POSSIBLY succeed in this
class is if a chassis were designed around it. My definition of "succeed"
is if the club competitors as a whole was able to acquire the motor at a
reasonable price, install it with minimal complications, and service it at
the track. At this point in time, I don't recall a F500 racer EVER having
to set valves, change oil/filter, or replace cam drive components AT THE
TRACK. I have seen no indication that they are ready to start, either.
dg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Reinhardt"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [F500] RE: Beyond powerplants/trannys
> Dave, you have issues!!!! Lighten up!
> You can't compare ANY stock auto engine racecar to a bike motor. Bike
> motors were built to race, not get the groceries, I've been doing it for
> over 20 years, I know. I have been the go to person for rules writing in
> the kart classes most recently, and I can tell you how to tech one these
> motors and how to keep it fare.
> The motor is in, it clears the jackshaft, we'll find out how it handles.
> You've done 2 or 3 conversions already? 1 or 2 more should be a piece
> of cake!!! I'm a welder by trade, not some high buck guy. I cut weld and
> grind all by myself.
> Again for about the 10th time, nobody is saying get rid of the current
> platform, I think this should be added to the class.
>
> CR
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> "Dave, anytime you leave the rules open, it can get expensive,
> ......." ----------------- Well, duh!
> It's expensive to run them stock, too. F'rinstance, in the Touring
> classes,
> Spec Mazda, and others, one doesn't just go to "Rebuilt Motor City," pull
> out their wallet and say "One please." You purchase through an authorized
> dealer; period. AND, if we went the "Restricted" route instead of the
> "Sealed" route, there are still issues: Which piston is considered
> acceptable, which cam(s) are authorized (hope no one does a "midnight"
> regrind), how much compression is too much, not to mention balancing,
> porting, etc. etc. yadda yadda. 4-cycles have literally more parts than a
> 2-cycle. More parts, more opportunities to "stretch the rules" and more
> variance in lap times, more success to the heave spenders, again etc. etc.
> yadda yadda.
>
> "I just don't know what all the fuss is about, " ---------------- You are
> absolutely right!
> You need to take more time and find out what all the fuss indeed IS about.
> Your postings indicate to me that you have not taken advantage of Eric's
> work in maintaining the archives. There's lots of good stuff in there.
>
> "I think a stock 600 will do just fine."-------------------- Right again.
> But, probably not here.
> However, you must consider (and you appear to have not yet done so) how to
> monitor the engines so that they remain stock. Someone or some
> organization
> has to manage that effort and they won't do it for free. If you think
> self-governance works, you sincerely do not know the history of club (or
> any) racing. If you have ever registered for an SCCA race, you will notice
> a section in the payment box that is paraphrased something like "Spec
> Racer
> Compliance fee" or "Spec Mazda Compliance fee" which is the club's way of
> saying "You convinced us that you want run sealed motors. Now pay us to
> make them stay that way." True, the cost is only ~$20 (for now). AND, Spec
> motors come from authorized suppliers. Ponder that.
>
> This bike motor that has you so convinced that it is our class's only
> salvation must be a real gem. What's its shape, size, and weight? Is the
> intake on both sides or opposed? Will the package clear the jackshaft? It
> the PTO properly tapered to take a snowmobile clutch? If not, is there
> enough material for a machinist to work with to machine the taper? Will
> the
> current cooling solutions be sufficient to cool this motor, too? Wiring
> harness? Throttle linkage? Engine plate? Succinctly stated, have you
> successfully put one of these in a car and made it run? If not, have you
> done any dimension studies? The KBS/Invader is probably (no, I am not
> positive) still the most prolific chassis in use today. If the package
> will
> not fit in that chassis, you will have several hundred people opposed to
> its
> use. These are just a few of my questions and I am NOT an engineer. I am
> the guy that would have to shoe-horn that lump into my two KBS chassis. I
> have done more than one engine conversion and ground up rebuild.
> Converting
> from Kawasaki to AMW was a REAL treat. AMW to Rotax, not quite so bad.
> There is always something to "fuss about." I am now facing a switch to the
> 493. It is inevitable. Remember, the engine alone is NOT the complete
> answer. This conversion has to be accomplished by people like me, off
> season, alone, out-of-pocket, and with some instructions, if possible.
> Don't EVEN mention a gearbox!
>
> If this was a 4-cycle engine out of a sled, I would be more inclined to
> listen (but, still remain skeptical). Personally, I don't want this class
> to become a bike motor class. SCCA will end up with enough of those.
>
> Check the archives. It's all there.
>
> Dave Gill
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Reinhardt"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [F500] RE: Beyond powerplants/trannys
>
>
>> Dave, anytime you leave the rules open, it can get expensive, I think a
>> stock 600 will do just fine.
>> I just don't know what all the fuss is about, these motors are cheeper
>> than what your running, and more durable, and require less fussing with.
>> Like the Corvette shocks, these bikes are built by the 1000's, not a
>> couple of hundred runs... If you need parts, you don't have to call the
>> only person in the country that imports them, you run down to your local
>> dealer, or search the web for the best price.
>>
>> CR
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Engine mods in DSR are pretty much open. There are rules governing valve
>> train configuration. but, standard "hot rod" stuff like balancing,
>> porting,
>> cam timing, exhaust, induction, ignition, are open. The rules are much
>> more
>> detailed that I imply but, there ARE DSR's with paddle shift (no
>> electronics
>> allowed).
>>
>> DSR requires either lots of brains or lots of money (which lets me out).
>>
>> Dave Gill
>>
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Content preview: Mr Reinhardt??? My teachers used to call me that???
Dave the only problem I have with the comments regarding bike motors, is
most the info posted here is wrong. We seem to be getting into a p#$^ing
contest here, I don't care to indulged, I just want to keep the facts
straight. 600cc Bike motors, ebay $2000 or less complete with all
electronics, check it yourself
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2003-Honda-CBR600RR-Engine-Motor-Low-Miles-Car-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35595QQihZ010QQitemZ200016388862QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
That's a complete "Car Kit" motor for $600. A new engine only from Honda
is S0010mee005 and about $5100. A "spec" series as you put is what the
AMA has been running for more that 10 years, it's pretty easy to tech,
shoot me a private email, I'll be happy to tell you how. These
supersport motors ARE RACE MOTORS, the AMA requires them to run stock
compression in supersport/superstock trim. As far as the future [...]
Content analysis details: (2.7 points, 5.0 required)
pts rule name description
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0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
1.4 HTML_10_20 BODY: Message is 10% to 20% HTML
0.2 DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE RBL: Envelope sender in abuse.rfc-ignorant.org
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postmaster.rfc-ignorant.org
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________________________________
FormulaCar Magazine - A Proud Supporter of Formula 500
The Official Publication of Junior Formula Car Racing
Subscribe Today! www.formulacarmag.com or 519-624-2003
_________________________________
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