WOW. Interesting....I should have read this first.....case closed....we are
all enlightened to the degree that we are...Tee Hee.
--- On Sat, 6/18/11, maskedzebra <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
From: maskedzebra <no_re...@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Visit with Amma
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, June 18, 2011, 8:08 AM
Dear Denise Evans,
If Amma were a good thing, the universe would, unequivocally, be determined to
demonstrate this. In fact the universe, reality, has never gone out of its way
to validate ANY claim of spiritual perfection. So my conclusion is: this
supposed 'higher state of consciousness' does not exist. Or, if it exists, it
exists through mystical deceit, and is, therefore, at bottom, an hallucination.
Assume there really is such a thing as Enlightenment: why, if such a sublime
and extraordinary possibility is the potential of every human being, there
remains no convincing and empirical proof of this? I contend because it is a
much more absolute truth that SUCH AN ONTOLOGICAL STATE OF AFFAIRS IS NOT
POSSIBLE FOR A CREATED BEING. Reality (what is really the case) knows this;
therefore the consensus in the West is, either explicitly or implicitly, THERE
IS NO SUCH THING. This is a lie.
Now let us assume for the sake of argument that I am right. Then what this must
mean is, that ANYONE who professes to be in a higher state of consciousness
(like Amma) is not only deceived about this, but necessarily is deceiving
others. Pray tell: WHY HAS NO ONE BEEN ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE THE TRUTH OF
ENLIGHTENMENT? Or rather: why has not nature, reality, God, the universe
decided (out of compassion and love and truthfulness) to make it known that 1.
such a state does in fact exist, and it is contained within the DNA potential
of every human being 2. that there are criteria you can objectively apply to
determine whether someone is enlightened or not, and here they are.
Supposing my thesis is correct (coincides with reality), then this must mean
that to attribute this metaphysical status or power to another human being
(who, according to my argument, cannot, based on the nature of what it means to
be a human being, achieve such a state of consciousness) necessarily means that
a profound form of deception—in the case of Amma I am sure unintentional and
unwitting—is entailed in projecting this enlightened idea upon her. Because,
you see, Denise, IT MEANS THAT ONE IS BEING TAKEN FOR A RIDE INTO PURE FANTASY.
And this ultimately is destabilizing, dislocating, debilitating—because one is
experiencing something that does not in fact exist.
Your account of the Amma Retreat bears all of this out. Here is a normal,
intelligent, skeptical but discerning and sincere person, opening themselves to
all that Amma has to offer. And what is the result? It is as you have described
it—and I note this: I COULD NOT DETECT A SINGLE BIT OF EVIDENCE THAT YOU
YOURSELF WERE PREJUDICED—or that there was anything within you which would
preclude you from forming a reasonably objective and normal judgment of what
you witnessed at this Amma Retreat. And THAT is the most critical and
confronting truth in your account: as in: IS THIS PERSON'S OWN BIASES
PREVENTING HER FROM HAVING THE KIND OF EXPERIENCE SHE WOULD HAVE HAD HAD SHE
NOT BEEN CLOSED TO REALITY?
Not a chance. How you come off both in your original account and then in your
response to the commentary that others on this blog have offered is as a
normal, thoughtful, and reasonable human being. The strain and effort to
somehow pick apart your story is greater than whatever went into your simple
and straightforward narration of your experience. You are grounded in the truth
of what I have argued is the case. Those who would try to persuade you—however
elegantly, gracefully (e.g. the very honest Rick Archer)—that you missed
something, overlooked something, were oblivious to other aspects of the
retreat—or misinterpreted what you saw—they bear the burden of proof—AND IT
SHOWS in the innocent trauma and anxiety (however faint) embedded in their
responses.
If you somehow got it all wrong, Denise—or even partly wrong—then somehow the
arguments marshalled by these Amma devotees would act as a countervailing force
of innocent intelligence against the impression you had formed and the judgment
you have reached about Amma. Or, you would find yourself attempting to resist
the dissonance created in your heart by these arguments. I have read your
responses, and there is strong evidence of just the opposite: you have acquired
a sense of peace and resolution on this matter, and in encountering the
perspective of those who would try to persuade you you have not really seen who
Amma is, or what she is all about, your own position is only strengthened. And
this is, in my reading of the situation, the most profound proof that: YOU ARE
FUNDAMENTALLY RIGHT.
Your experience of that retreat represents the most accurate and meaningful
take that someone could have—who is being supported by what is NORMAL and true
and right.
So, for me, Denise: cased closed. Where you went to inside yourself to get your
experience, well, I contend that that is a place which very favourably compares
to the place where all these other persons (who revere Amma) get their
experience of how wonderful and beatific and divine she is.
Amma is just another human being—no doubt very sincere—but utterly and
hopelessly deceived. AMMA HAS NO IDEA WHO THE REAL PERSON IS SHE IS SUPPOSED TO
BE. It is just a tragedy how many minds are being weakened and invaded by a
spiritual context which does not bear a one to one relationship with reality.
Amma, whatever powers have been bestowed upon her, could never allow the
experience you had to occur were she connected deeply to reality, to the
intelligence of loving goodness which created the universe—and you—and Amma.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans <dmevans365@...> wrote:
>
> I like the point about the caliber of followers - I did meet many interesting
> and intelligent and kind folks. Â And, given the size of her following, all
> personalities will be represented. Â Overall, my main and only problem was
> with the message to pray to Amma as God, but that is also possibly a
> reflective response to my bias and of my experience. Â Years ago, I almost
> joined an evangelistic Christian church because I was so overwhelmed by the
> love I received from the church members as a new prospective member. Â But, I
> couldn't get over the idea that Jesus wasn't God and later noted a number of
> hypocritical behaviors. Â Now that I'm older and also can be judgemental,
> etc., I see some of these as the "human condition." Â It doesn't appear that
> anyone's reality is exactly like another's. Â I do agree that there are many
> teachers of many faiths that remind us of the principles of love, compassion,
> service, and respect for the environment
and that is all a
> good thing. Â
>
> --- On Fri, 6/17/11, Rick Archer <rick@...> wrote:
>
> From: Rick Archer <rick@...>
> Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Visit with Amma
> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, June 17, 2011, 11:37 AM
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> Can’t argue with you. your perspective is well-thought-out and
> well-written. Mine is that I know folks who see Amma or even live in her
> ashram who span a wide range of personal and spiritual maturity. Some are
> quite cultish in their thinking and behavior, some quite independent. On the
> whole though, I’ve always been impressed with the caliber and “vibe� of
> the people around Amma. Maharishi used to say that you can tell the quality
> of a teacher by the quality of his/her followers, and from my perspective,
> Amma’s followers are evidence of a benign teacher. The young people who
> have been hanging with her seem to be turning out very well â€" bright,
> sincere, drug-free, and Amma steers them into higher education. I doubt that
> there is a spiritual movement on earth that doesn’t have its disgruntled
> deserters. I agree with your comment about Sai Baba. I don’t know whether
> or why Amma said what she is
reported to have said about him, but if
> she did, IMO she was wrong. But that’s just my opinion. YMMV.  From:
> FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Denise Evans
> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 1:13 PM
> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Visit with Amma   I respect the idea of
> "taking what works for you and leaving the rest." Â That can work if one, as
> an adult, doesn't give up one's ability to assess critically by embracing
> "blind faith." Â For me, however, while I enjoyed the food, music, service,
> meditation, group faith and even the opportunity to purchase/shop for CD's
> and books, the bottom line is that if one delves a bit deeper into the
> message, the more subtle aspects of it push/encourage/reinforce on a constant
> basis the concept that Amma is the one to be prayed to and that she is divine
> and an incarnation of God. Â This wouldn't have been evident unless if we
> hadn't embraced the three-day retreat/immersion. Â While this may be what a
> "saint" is, it is also a danger if one truly gives up a potential personal
> and direct connection to the Universal consciousness that we all can have as
> souls and turning over one's life and independent
thought process
> and questioning nature to another human (I still see her as human, despite
> her ability to manipulate energy or alleged all-knowing, psychic skills). Â
> Â Not everyone does this, but the devotees who do may spend years of their
> life and their money in this effort and get in so deep that they lose
> themselves and their families in the process. Â I think the concepts of
> "disappointment", "let down", or "betrayal" do not go far enough to explain
> the spiritual crisis that occurs when the discrepancies between the
> ideals/big picture teachings and the actual behavior of the "saint" or
> "organization" bear witness to the fact that this is not God, but in fact a
> human construct with agendas reflecting ego and control and acquisition of
> wealth and corporate-like growth. Â One must be careful in deciding to follow
> a "human" professing to be "realized." Â Note that Sai Baba was found to be a
> pedophile before he died - Amma also acknowledged him as a great
"saint" at
> one time - whoops - not in my realm of existence, not ever - this was not an
> "all-knowing" statement. Â My daughter has learning disabilities that inhibit
> critical thought; while I think meditation would be great for her, she
> learned in her youth class to meditate to Amma - this amounts to pressuring
> impressionable minds at a young age. Â The same was reinforced in my class
> (although there was brief lip service to the idea that we could "pray to
> whoever our God was") I think this one aspect corrupted the value of the
> meditation unfortunately. Â Â I asked to join the examma group to try and
> educate myself from those who had a perspective or experience informed by
> years of following. Â I simply could not find a balanced perspective on the
> internet. Â These accounts can be found and they are interesting to say the
> least - all is not always as it appears on the outside. Â The site is
> moderated heavily as it is supposed to a safe place for
ex-devotees to
> share their story with some privacy - there is fear, in some cases about
> repercussions and/or attack from current devotees and the organization -
> which some have experienced. Â Overall, while I do not qualify as an
> "ex-devotee", I was desperate to understand more and appreciate the
> opportunity to have reviewed the first-account postings which, admittedly,
> have to be sorted out from all of the other posts. Â The site has evolved
> over time as all sites do. The ammachi_free_zone site is public and open to
> discourse and some of the historical postings on that site are also
> interesting. Â While I personally think that Amma and the organization
> absolutely reflects a cult status in many aspects, I don't believe that this
> is all that it is. Â I shared my story mostly to encourage people to retain
> their right to question and objectively evaluate the experience as an
> individual soul. Â Â Â Â Â
>
> --- On Thu, 6/16/11, Rick Archer <rick@...> wrote:
> From: Rick Archer <rick@...>
> Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Visit with Amma
> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, June 16, 2011, 10:46 AM Interesting, honest account. I’ve
> been seeing Amma for about 12 years and have been meditating regularly (TM)
> since 1968. I can’t dispute any of the externals you describe. I think your
> description of those is accurate. A lot of it is, as you say, necessary to
> manage the crowds that Amma hugs. Very carefully thought-out, detailed
> procedures are in place to keep things flowing smoothly. A few extra seconds
> spent unnecessarily with each person can mean hours in the course of a day.
> Amma is 57. All this has taken a toll on her body and every effort is made to
> lessen her load. The whole scene is very Indian, even cult-like. I approach
> it, as I try to approach all things, with a “take what you need and leave
> the rest� attitude. I believe that “energy� you felt is genuine and
> benign. I think it can be powerfully instrumental in furthering one’s
> spiritual progress.
That, and the culture around Amma, may be
> addictive for some people. As for me, after a dozen years seeing Amma on
> many occasions, I actually feel more independent. I don’t pay much
> attention to all the hoopla you mention. I just tune into that energy and
> come away feeling more clear and uplifted. As for the Ex-Amma group, it is
> moderated by someone who only saw Amma once, from afar, and who has a
> vendetta against Eastern spirituality in general, and for personal reasons,
> Amma in particular. I have never participated in the group, but I am told
> that it is heavily moderated, and comments defending or supporting Amma are
> not approved. So I’d take that group with a big grain of salt. I’ve seen
> a lot of kids helped tremendously by Amma - gotten off drugs and steered
> toward higher education and a healthy lifestyle. So I’d think twice about
> blocking your daughter’s further participation.
>
