Ooo, I do enjoy following your different lines of thought here. But I'm actually gonna start with something you wrote to Doc. Curtis to Doc: Evaluating the reasons we adapt beliefs is not a science issue. They have to deal with it too, but it underlies all of human knowledge.
Share: I think it is a science issue: the sciences of psychology and anthropology and sociology. And even if by science you meant the hard sciences, then definitely the adaptation of beliefs can be scrutinized by neurobiologists, etc. Wouldn't it be great to see fMRIs done on athiests, fundamentalists, and moderately religious people? On Republicans and Democrats? On those who believe in global warming and those who don't. On Washington Redskins fans vs Dallas Cowboy fans? Just to throw in a little humor (-: I think neurobiology, etc. are perhaps the most fruitful lines of inquiry about human believing behavior because how else can the mind, which is the instrument of believing, get around its inherent tendency to believe especially when studying its own tendency to believe? How can any mind transcend its own believing behavior? How can any mind avoid its own prejudices about believing? I'd bet money that most scientists have beliefs about beliefs! And beliefs about believing will be present even in the formulation of research questions! It's a conundrum. But just maybe neuroscience is a way around this. Except for that pesky principle having to do with how an observer changes what is observed. Oy! Anyway, back to your post to me: I tend to come from a psychology angle so right away I noticed that you said you are "forced not only to live with, but communicate with people from all over the world." But you seem ok with it despite your use of the word * forced * so I won't press. Actually I cannot imagine what your view might be of the evidence proof of my alleged favorite healers. But I won't press either of these points either. The name Sam Harris sounds familiar. I think I've heard it here before. Here's what I will press because it's juicy for me: I think it's great for you that you socialize with lots of different people. And I think it's great for me that I don't. Why? Because I think there is room for both ways of being in this universe which seems to be all about diversity. But I'm guessing that, since you're doing it, and especially since you're mentioning it, that you think it is the better course of action. I would say yes, it is the better course of action. For you! So then you might reply that it's the better course of action for everyone. I would ask why. And you might say: because it's better for optimal human development. Ok, I agree with optimal human development. But I also recognize that that too is a belief. A belief that it's always better to go for optimal human development! See what I'm getting at? I wonder if an aboriginal chief in New Zealand would be at all concerned about something called optimal human development. I enjoy hearing about both the research you cite and the book you mention. What they seem to be getting at is that we can be unconsciously reinforced in our beliefs and we should, as you say, guard against that. Why? For the sake of optimal human development? What about our NZ chief? Here's why, coming from the perspective of having questioned many organizations, I think we should guard against unconscious adaptation of beliefs: because it can lead to the harming of life. I bet we agree on this. What we don't agree on is what is the best way to guard against the adaptation of unconscious beliefs that might limit the full development of life or worse, be harmful to life. I actually think that many if not most arguments on FFL are about this. ________________________________ From: curtisdeltablues <curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 10:51 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Alienation and Idleness in Paradise --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long <sharelong60@...> wrote: > > Well feste wasn't born in the US> I missed that, sorry Feste. <but otherwise good points, Curtis. Plus, there are more Hispanics in FF than there were probably when you were last here.> What was your last conversation with any of them about? Where I live I am forced not only to live with, but communicate with people from all over the world. Now that doesn't allow me to claim to be more open minded, but I have the exposure. I get less reinforcement from my environment for a particular way of thinking. < And there are lots of students at MUM from other countries and cultures, representing different races. True, I don't socialize with them.> I think that would be necessary for them to affect your POV. < But I don't socialize with anyone living on campus, unless a wave in the Dome could be considered as socializing. My socializing tends to be with people who live in FF and are around my age. Except the new writing group has a woman in her twenties and one in her thirties.  Â> I try to interact with people in as many decades agewise as I can. I think each decade has a perspective that I can forget once I leave it, or not know about because I am not there yet. > > > I like that phrase basic premises about spirituality. But I'm not sure I > even have any of those any more! Even recently, reading Xeno's post have > shifted me about all that. Plus I often find myself using all kinds of non > TM language. I think my posts to Ravi yesterday are a good example of > that! > > Anyway, I love talking about abstract ideas so would enjoy if you could > delineate one basic premise about spirituality that you see in my writing. > I'm sure I would learn something useful.  > I am not here to bust your chops on your beliefs Share. I'll bet you can imagine what my view of the evidence proof for some of your favorite healers might be. I am not anti belief. I just think that many spiritual beliefs are held for poor reasons. There are plenty of books that can help you if you want to pursue that perspective. I recommend Sam Harris as a good source from someone who is not anti meditation but is skeptical about the claims spiritual groups make. Uncovering your own unconscious premises takes time. None of us has the ability to choose beliefs for good reasons all the time. We are all just winging it mostly. But my goal is to try to weed out some of the more obvious assumptions I am making that just crept in without me consciously evaluating why I might choose such a belief. This is an issue with a community with many common assumptions. Beliefs are reinforced unconsciously by assumption without conscious evaluation. We are especially vulnerable to this effect as social primates, where getting along and aligning with group values is actually a survival necessity. A study was done where an interviewer doing the interview looked up and smiled whenever the speaker used a past tense verb or a plural noun. By the end of the hour, their use of these two randomly chosen word forms rose dramatically and when asked about it, had no idea that they had. Most denied it was possible. There are many great books on our cognitive gaps. One I read recently that I like is: What Makes Our Brains Happy, and Why We Should Do the Opposite. It discusses how our brain functions skews our thinking in predictable ways. Ways that once we are aware of, we can guard against. These effects are amplified if a group of people have a societal convention of certain assumptions about reality. Nuff said. > > > As for that cognitive tendency to think my subset represents anything of the > whole country, I definitely don't have that! All I have to do is talk or > email with family members to know I'm in a miniscule minority. We all are guilty of this. I try to take time to evaluate my exposure to different ideas from my own perspective. It is one of the big reasons I choose to share my views on a "spiritual" board rather than a more like-minded one. Here I can test the edges of my beliefs against people who view it all very differently. > > > Wow, I loved writing this. Thank you. Back atchya! > > > ________________________________ > From: curtisdeltablues <curtisdeltablues@...> > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 9:15 AM > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Alienation and Idleness in Paradise > > >  > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long <sharelong60@> wrote: > > > > > > FF TMers don't even have turq's so called homogeneous community on FFL > > > much less IN Fairfield! feste and Raunchy and me and Buck: how > > > homogeneous is even that grouping?! My point is that there is a rich > > > diversity among Fairfield TMers. > > Share I'm happy for you that you dig Fairfield, but I must object to your > claiming it represents a rich diversity of people. Your example was three > white people, from middle or upper class upbringing, who are well educated > and were born in the US. > > Philosophically you share basic premises about spirituality even in your > attitudes toward Maharishi. The differences between your opinions from > outside are pretty superficial. Within a basically homogeneous group you are > amplifying small differences within your POVs. > > I bring this up because your view represents a fairly common cognitive > tendency which is playing out politically in the country, that your tiny > subsection of society represents a diversity of opinions and values of the > whole country. > > And there is nothing wrong with preferring a place that lacks broad > diversity. But it will have limitations concerning how broad a perspective > you are gunna get compared to a truly diverse cultural mix. > >  And sure, we experience all the slings and arrows of being human. > But I'll take bad weather FF any day over supposedly good weather places like > Florida, which has a sidha community in Vero Beach BTW. Because there's > an alleged buffer in Fairfield? No, because there is a richness of life > that becomes more and more apparent with the passing of time. That > richness suffuses even the challenges of aging, being retired, etc. And > yes, I think I experience this because I've been doing the TMSP for so > long. And I'm sure that other paths have the same benefit. Even the > path of simply surfing the waves of life. Another way to say it is that > I've found an imperfect perfection. And that is the kind I love. > > > And am mightily grateful for. > > > > I can imagine that FF would be a wonderful place to live, after all I lived > > there and loved it. One really appealing aspect of aging in a place like FF > > is that you do not have to do so isolated, bored and essentially alone. FF > > is a small (and was) a charming little midwestern town with a town square, > > independent, small businesses and lots of people who are there for the same > > reason. It is close enough to some bigger cities to allow for the > > occasional cultural excursion to larger venues. > > > > While I am pretty sure I would have many reasons for eye rolling and > > snorting if I were to be there and that my more rebellious nature would > > rear its ugly and button pushing head, I could think of worse places to > > retire (if that concept were part of my life philosophy which it is not) > > than FF Iowa. I love the snow and I love the heat and humidity in the > > summer as well - I like weather and I love storms and that part of the > > world even has its occasional tornado (exciting). > > > > What I would NOT do is go to the domes or attend every travelling side show > > that came to town but I can certainly relate to having friends, going to > > local coffee and eating spots and generally feeling like part of a > > community that is more vibrant than your average nursing home. Anyway, I am > > going to die in the woods or a field anyway and FF has both. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: turquoiseb <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> > > > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 4:06 AM > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Alienation and Idleness in Paradise > > > > > > > > >  > > > For those of you who have HBO, and who might be interested > > > in such things, a friend recommends a film nominated this > > > year for Best Short Documentary in the Oscars which will > > > be playing on that channel. > > > > > > It's called "King's Point," and it's one woman's docu about > > > life in a Florida retirement community, and the "common > > > demoninator problem" faced by many of the "inmates" there: > > > alienation and loneliness. I haven't seen it, but I find > > > myself wondering whether it has some parallels (or will, > > > in coming years) to life in the "Heaven on Earth" of > > > Fairfield, Iowa. > > > > > > Will the same alienation and loneliness affect TMers as > > > they age in a homogeneous community in which many people > > > believe the same things and share the same problems (money, > > > health, and WTF to do with their days), or will their > > > "common denominator belief system" provide some kind of > > > buffer to keep the place from becoming, as Leonard Cohen > > > said so well, "Deader than Heaven on a Saturday night?" > > > > > > I honestly don't know. Perhaps those with feet on the > > > ground (in many ways) there in Fairfield who see this > > > will feel like commenting. > > > > > > http://www.tvworthwatching.com/BlogPostDetails.aspx?postId=4475# > > > > > > These are the moments when I wish that Dr. Pete was still > > > with us as an active participant. I'd love to hear his > > > POV on this, both as a psychologist and a Florida dweller. > > > > > > What I'm NOT interested in, for those who will feel compelled > > > to provide it, is a bunch of TM propaganda of the "It can't > > > happen here" variety, telling us how IN THEORY TMers > > > could never feel lonely and alienated in a "perfect" > > > community such as theirs. I think we've all heard too much > > > about murders and suicides in Fairfield to believe any of > > > that theoretical crap. I'm not even *doubting* that a sense > > > of "shared spiritual vision" can be a protective factor as > > > one ages, even if that factor is primarily a placebo. I'm > > > just wondering what people's "on the ground" take is on > > > this subject of the differences between a "theoretical > > > paradise" (either well-designed and maintained rest homes > > > in Florida or the TM "ideal communities") and what that > > > paradise turns out to be like for the people living in it. > > > > > >
