There can never be any resolution to this debate from the side of the mind. The mind is looking for gratification through affirmation and support. The value of a teacher is in the impact they have on awakening you. This teacher could be quite a fruitloop or very traditional; very sweet and supportive or a real son-of-a-bitch. Their personality is is quite secondary to that which is awake, as it were, in them. Everything else is just the mind trying to resolve conflicts primarily by making everything that is in disagreement with it "wrong" and everything that agrees with it "right." We all are such frigging morons!
--- sinhlnx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Excellent article on previous post....makes it all > the more important > to formulate a set of objective/relative signs which > attest to one's > Enlightenment, realization of the Self. But this is > problematic > within the context of the groundrules laid out by > the proponents of > Pseudo-Advaita, of where are many in the Web. A > quick "google" can > uncover a few dozen of them. Most are devottes of > Ramana Maharshi, a > few of Nisargadatta Maharaj, and at least one of Adi > Da.; or in the > lineages of these people. (which is in itself a > contradiction since > Ramana Maharshi didn't setup a lineage. Gangaji > claims she is in > the "lineage" of Ramana since she is a devotee of > HWL Poonja and the > latter was a devotee of Ramana. At any rate, let's > briefly discuss > the problem involved in stating that "one" is > Enlightened ; first > within the context of the Neo-Advaitins then within > the context of > Buddhism. > 1. In the Pseudo- or Neo-Advaitin "tradition": > Ramana Maharshi, HWL > Poonja, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Gangaji, I-Nome, > Andrew Cohen, Adi Da, > etc.... > The problem arises since Ramana Maharshi himself > stated that any > talk of "I'm Enlishtened" is a lot of nonsense since > there's no "I" > left to claim it. This should stop a lot of > self-styled Neo- > Advaitins in their tracks straight away since lots > of them have > websites and obviously want to let on that they are > Enlightened; but > have difficulting enunciating that. They are left in > a quandary: a. > don't state it and thus potentially be left out of > the adulation they > crave by having sycophants worship them, attend > their lectures, give > donations, OR do make the bold claim and risk > contradicting Ramana's > teaching. If they go around saying "I'm > enlightened", then people > will become suspect in that making the claim > outright have resorted > to then, is to avoid certain taboo statements such > as "I'm > Enlightened" (but Andrew Cohen goes ahead and makes > such a claim > anyway).; and allude rather to certain peripheral > statements of which > there many. These are certain pet code or buzz > phrases intended to > convey the information that "I'm enlightened" ...but > not allowed to > say it outright; so I will resort to the code words. > 2. The MMY/TM org solution is to zero in in > certain symptons of > Enlightenment which must be present for those in CC > or higher but > not present in those not in CC such as continuous > Witnessing > throughout the sleep state. The shortcoming here is > that the list of > symptoms appears to be mighty short, unless there > are others conveyed > during personal communications with the bonavide > Teacher. (besides > MMY, who would these people be?). The very notion > that there are > criteria for judging whether or not people are > Enlightened is > rejected by the Neo-advaitins but is no problem for > MMY, whom in his > cleverness has (more than anybody else) seen that > for every state of > Consciousness, there are corresponding physiological > states. Although > one cannot adequately describe Enlightenment, the > physiological > components CAN be described, (somethingthe > Neo-Advaitins have > overlooked). > 3. Buddhism probably has the most complete and > through framework for > determining if the person is Enlightened; and some > of these criteria > were listed previously. > 4. Other traditions, Sant Mat for example. The > major goal here is > God Consciousness which is probably the same as GC > in MMY's scheme. A > few of the Sant Mat Gurus probably were Enlightened > but the Sant Mat > Tradition basically can't deal with the idea of > non-dualism and > there's no conceptual framework for Advaita in Sant > Mat since the > founders of that Tradition reject Shankara. > Well, that's about it. To conclude, many of the > Neo-Advaitins want to > claim Enlightenment for themselves but run into > problem since their > major founder Ramana Maharshi rejected the very idea > of a claim as > being delusional. Certain Neo-Advaitins such as > Andrew Cohen have > gone against Ramana's teachings with some risk to > their reputations; > and have indeed come up with their own long lists of > the symptoms of > Enlightenment, to wit: (Andrew's magazine What is > Enlightenment" goes > into this question in vertually every issue. > Unfortunately for > Andrew, if one of the criterions is "Your Mother > must say you're > Elnlightened" then Andrew is a failure in that > regard since his Mom > wrote a whole book listing the various symptoms of > Andrew's big Ego. > This begs the question then - are these "real" > symptons of a Ego are > just apparent symptoms ? I say - a cow is a cow > regardless. What's > your opinion? > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. 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