From: salyavin808 <no_re...@yahoogroups.com>
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <turquoiseb@...> wrote : Buck's off his anti-cult-mentality meds again. For most people on the planet, the issue is not "proving" that a bunch of people bouncing on their butts can lower crime, affect the weather, and create world peace, but the fact that some people are so out of it that they actually believed it could in the first place. That degree of gullibility is what needs to be researched, not the "ME." I wonder if hardcore TM is the religion with the smallest set of believers on Earth? I would suggest that TM is more like "the religion that claims it's not a religion with the smallest set of believers on Earth." :-) How many really believe that a field effect in consciousness can lower crime etc, even with no evidence? Must be in the few thousands at most. Hell, I know a TM governor in the UK who doesn't believe it. Who would *admit* to believing it, outside of a closed TM-only environment? The "TM governor" you speak of might claim to believe it while talking with other members of the religion/cult, just so as to not make waves, but be honest about not believing it when talking to more rational people such as yourself. I was discussing John Hagelin with a physicist I know the other day, I explained about how he thinks prayers can prevent Earthquakes and tea leaves can predict the future and that it's all to do with quantum super-position. My friend wondered why he hasn't been detained under the mental health act. Many of us have wondered this. :-) In case Buck starts crying about me being anti-science here, I would say that it's JH who is abusing the known principles of science and particularly those that he got his PHD in, and that this is just the sort of drivel that keeps people from taking the ME seriously. Not that it's any magnitude of sanity higher than yagya's of course... Exactly. In a way, this is a parallel to current discussions of the Israeli-Gaza conflict. Criticize the policies and the actions of the State Of Israel and the Zionist cultists go crazy and start claiming that anyone doing so is an "anti-semite" and advocating the destruction of Judaism. On the other hand, the rabbi whose essay I posted the other day nailed what's really happening -- the current State Of Israel is what is destroying Judaism. By setting themselves and their greed and bloodlust up as "what Jews are all about," they are making it difficult even for *other Jews* to agree with them. Similarly, by abusing science and pretending that his cult nonsense constitutes science, John Hagelin is doing more to destroy TM and be "anti-science" than anyone else. ...but it is easily testable. So go to it! Again... That's the bottom line that no one here is really responding to. The TM organization has *more than enough* money to gather as large a group of butt-bouncers as they think are necessary to create measurable effects. They've had the money to do this for decades. But they don't do it. Looks to me as if none of *them* really believe in the "ME" either. ________________________________ From: "dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 1:04 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Science and the Meissner Effect of Consciousness as Field Yes quite evidently you and the other anti-meditation anti-science folks here are afraid of where the data is going. Your asserting no data therefore no replication and therefore it can't be talked about or researched. Asserting that it does not exist defies reality and scientific process itself of data, observation, hypothesis and testing . Lawson is looking at how to replicate given the practical constraints of such a project given the data. You completely miss-interpret to your own vile ends. You evidently don't want anything to happen less it disturb your anti-meditation and anti-spiritual grumblings. You contend the research can't be replicated and shouldn't be, well talk about subterfuge and anti-science anti-intellectualism. Next we'll hear from you that there never was such a thing as darshan where obviously there is and then you'll say it is not worth trying to look at for fear of what we might find. Did you just renew your membership down at the local conservative Anglican Church or something that you come on so regressive like you do? -Buck in the Dome Thanks LEnglish5 very much for this more even-handed review of what is current. It is refreshing in the face of all the anti-science and allergy that so many have to TM and spirituality here on this board. -Buck What are you talking about Buck? Lawson used to be the hard core defender of ME research, it's only very recently he's come round to the viewpoint I've held all along, that ME research doesn't show what is claimed for it. So why are you calling me "anti-science"? Criticismis science, that's how it works. Someone has an idea, they collect evidence and publish it. The ME research doesn't show anything beyond statistical manipulation, it sure as hell didn't show a huge decrease in crime. So the ball is back in the court of the people who claim its efficacy to prove it was a real effect. Your problem is that you get all sensitive when someone criticises a pet theory of yours when it's all part of the scientific process. If the ME stands up someone will find a way of demonstrating it. It might help if they had an explanation for how it might work in the first place. Instead all they have is a bunch of wishy-washy new age terms explained in the context of other wishy-washy new age terms. So why should anyone take it seriously and go to the expense of testing it when, as Lawson points out, there appears to be no evidence to try and replicate? LEnglish5 writes: It may have been demonstrated to the satisfaction of true believers, but not to the satisfaction of skeptics. The problem with the ME research is that it is essentially not replicatable on a large-scale. No two cities or groups of cities are really alike, and even using the same city over and over again for a study has many issues. Fred Travis' thesis research on interpersonal EEG coherence (the ME between two people) would be a better route to go, but he was forced to use averages of EEG statistics over a period of many seconds, and it turns out that there is a ceiling effect on that specific measure which makes it unlikely to find the effect consistently. So... what to do? As I pointed out before, there's a more sophisticated way of analyzing global EEG called "EEG microstates," where the average electrical activation of the brain can be examined in tiny slices of time, down to as low as 2-10 milliseconds per slice. That is easily 400x the resolution that Fred used in his original study. The people in charge of the TM organization are well aware of how the ME research is viewed by most non-believers, but there's been no way to satisfy genuine concerns like independent replication until now. The DC experiment not only cost the TM organization several million to conduct, but it required coordinating the lives of 4,000 Sidhas. This is NOT something that can ever be replicated on a regular basis, no matter what kind of resources you have and you can't expect the average skeptical scientist to arrange to do such research, either. When the upcoming EEG microstate research on TM is published, if it turns out that there is a definite pattern associated with pure consciousness, it may be possible to redo Fred Travis' original research with as many as 400x the number of data points in a given TM session. I don't know offhand, how much more sensitive this would make a specific study, but I'm pretty sure it is a LOT more sensitive... ...tried just now to plug various values into online statistical calculators, and it looks like having 400x as many data points roughly makes a given simple experiment 400x as sensitive (sorta -there might be a square-root in there, but it looks like it is a lot more than 20x as sensitive so not sure)... John Hagelin obviously realizes the points above. He was giving the standard party line to me earlier this year about how the research into the ME is reliable, etc., but when I started to point out that there would be potentially 400x as many data points as was available in Fred Travis' experiments and that this meant fully independent skeptics could conduct their own very cheap experiments, he kinda got excited and interrupted me about halfway through my spiel, saying he would talk to Fred Travis about it. Lawson ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : Maharishi's technologies for creating peace was demonstrated again and again in the 70'ies and 80'ies. No need for any more demonstrations. It is well documented and it's now up to responsible leaders in the world to implement these technologies at a fraction of the costs of waging wars. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <fleetwood_macncheese@...> wrote : I agree. I am a little surprised that the TMO hasn't done this, as a continuation of Maharishi's initiatives. Of course, there are enough hot spots that it could be an issue to fund all of them. Maharishi always wanted countries to recognize the value of his programs on their own, but it is something very tough to do, while fighting a war. Jordan may be safe enough, and close enough, and friendly enough, for a group of Sidhas, though I can't think of anyplace else. I seem to recall this was done, at least once before in possibly Lebanon? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : You are exaggerating as usual. There is no point in putting people in harm's way, which would be grossly irresponsible. That was never the idea. The Maharishi effect doesn't mean that all violence ceases immediately or that you could meditate as a group in the middle of a battlefield and come out unscathed. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : Oh no! Let 'em put up or shut up! Let 'em go to where the rockets are flying and do so at their own expense. If it really works the way they claim, they will be in no danger. From: feste37 <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2014 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] For The Turq and his Superiors I think they should try it. Nothing else is working. It's just the usual, endless round of violence. The TM group wouldn't have to go into the most dangerous areas. Just being close would probably do it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : Thank you Nabby for posting this bold article. Here is the comment I posted on the site - let's see if they have the balls to allow it to be posted: As a former practitioner of transcendental meditation, I know that you are a shill for the TM Movement. You are also not giving full information in your article. IDT refers to the TM Sidhi program, the one that purports to enable people to levitate. In no way shape or form is this nonsense scientifically validated. But let's give you the benefit of the doubt - you want to prove this voodoo technology works then I challenge you to personally lead a group into the most dangerous and violent sections of Israel and the Gaza strip. Let the TM Movement pay every penny of the expense in supporting such a group rather than begging the rest of the world to financially support you (which is your actual intent in suggesting such a group) and see how long you last. I do suggest you make sure to give the Israeli authorities the names of your next of kin, I expect they will need them. From: nablusoss1008 <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2014 9:30 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] For The Turq and his Superiors An Outsider's View of How to Calm Middle East-Gaza Tension http://www.newspronto.com/opinion/4376-an-outsider-s-view-of-how-to-calm-middle-east-gaza-tension
