Curtis and Steve, I'm also just thinking out loud, sort of fumbling around with
all this. Because KISIC and KIDIDSOC always resonated with me as being true.
They felt right. But it's also fun to try and reason them out as well. But as I
said, I'm just fumbling around, exploring, also sort of playing with words and
our accepted meaning of them.
As I've said before, I don't really think in terms of higher and lower states
of consciousness. I think of more developed brain states, meaning, more of the
brain functioning in a very healthy way. Which I think would automatically be
of benefit to the world. I'm assuming that if most of a person's brain was
functioning in a very healthy way, then that is how they would behave. It seems
like a reasonable assumption to me.
More fumbling, but here's an example from my life and I'm not claiming any
higher SOC. But I do know that when I'm rested, when my physiology is settled,
I feel more in harmony with the people around me. And I treat them more
positively. That's a major value for me, and I think for them too. OTOH, if
I'm upset or distracted, I can't even be with them as completely, so my
knowledge of them at that moment, is incomplete and therefore not as valuable
for either of us in terms of living a rich human life.
From: "curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]"
<FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Okay, let's put it on the table: UFOs
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <steve.sundur@...> wrote :
Share,
I agree that there is some conflating here of mental abilities and "knowledge".
C: You mean by Maharishi in his examples, right? He started the comparison
which you are labeling conflation.
S: I think it is the typical apple/orange thing.
The way the concept was presented by Maharishi was the obvious difference
between waking, sleeping, and dreaming states of consciousness which we note in
every day experience.
C: That was another example he used. The clear and foggy, tired not tired
example was also his. Of course saying that these are different mental states
doesn't really make any practical case for how it might apply to our daily life
which is why he needed to extend the example. Saying that our "knowledge" is
different in deep sleep is a bit of a stretch because it is a state of zero
consciousness. So it isn't that the knowledge is different as much as the
knower is gone. In dreams we also have a very altered sense of self so there
really isn't a parallel there either. It isn't that our knowledge, which is by
his definition experience and understanding.The understanding part is missing
because the experience is not organized as it is in waking state. So saying
that these are different style experience does nothing to establish the
principle he is attempting to establish, that "knowledge" is structured in
"consciousness." The best he does is to point out that to know anything we must
be aware and to know specific things we must be aware of those things and be in
a state of mind capable of that. Not exactly an enlightened news flash.
C: But where it gets interesting is when you consider the fourth, fifth, sixth,
and seventh states, and how knowledge is perceived or acquired, differently in
those states.
But, if you don't buy into the reality of those states, then it is easy to
dismiss the theory.
C: You can have had the experience of altered states without buying into them
as higher states. If you have done heavy rounding you know that you can alter
your mental functioning. What it means is the issue. And in all my own
experience I can't find an example of my "knowledge" being different, just my
experience of my own mental functioning. The understanding was being pumped in
by hours of lectures of Maharishi trying to convince me how I should interpret
the experience and its value and meaning. I had the same beliefs throughout the
process of changing internal experience, there was not change in my knowledge.
Then when my "knowledge" changed again and I rejected his teaching I could
still experience the states I had when I was a believer, they are not connected.
S: After all, they are subjective by nature, so if someone says "prove it", you
may be hard pressed to do so.
C: If this was the kind of state extolled by Maharishi, the highest state of
human development, there would be plenty of proof. Maharishi gave lots of
examples of how we would see results in activity, he was not poo pooing proof
for his claims, he as boldly claiming it could be proven.
His confidence has not held up to scrutiny over time. Maharishi was using a
philosophical proof system to make his case. I am showing that it is a flawed
one. Proof by analogy isn't valid, analogies are a way to explain something you
have proven in another way.
In the beginning he could claim that people just didn't have the experience so
no noticeable results could be shown to prove his claim. Now we have people
claiming to be in these higher states. So now it turns out that even if
knowledge IS structured in consciousness, other than self satisfaction, nothing
is changed in their "knowledge" that does anyone else any good at all. It is
indistinguishable from someone saying, "now that Jesus has saved me and I have
eternal life, everything in my life is unfolding in God's perfect plan." So the
idea of the value of knowledge is reduced to:
" I feel good about myself now." Did it really take years of practice to
achieve that? And isn't the concept of the value of human knowledge much more
than that?
This is a great topic no matter where you stand on it, thanks for pitching in
Steve. I am just thinking out loud here, sorting out my own perspective by
expressing it.
On the other hand, you have someone like Barry owning up to having such
experiences, but placing no particular importance to them.
You have someone like Michael, who has waxed on about traversing the whole
field of those higher states of consciousness, but then deciding that doing so
sort of invalidates his oft repeated assumption that the technique doesn't work.
So, I'm not sure what is going on with these guys.
It sounds to me that at least those two have already implicated themselves as
to verifying that "knowledge is different in different states of consciousness"
Barry said as much this morning.
Now, the fact that this seems to put him at odds with what Curtis is saying,
may require him to backtrack some. Or more likely, he doesn't really care.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <sharelong60@...> wrote :
Curtis, from your first paragraph, it sounds like you're equating knowledge
with mental abilities. But I don't think that's what Maharishi meant. I think
what he meant by knowledge is conclusions drawn from perceptions.One of the
classical examples is that of the blind men touching different parts of the
elephant and then coming to different conclusions about the identity of the
object being touched in different places.Another classic example is the snake
and the string wherein the agitated person sees something threatening and the
calm person sees something nonthreatening.Even in every day life, if 10 people
witness an accident, there will be 10 different reports. And how about the
party game of telephone? Why doesn't the message stay the same with each
hearing and repeating?
From: "curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Okay, let's put it on the table: UFOs
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
Both the Turq's claim that he saw the Lenz-Rama-guy levitate many times and
Curti's claim that "knowledge is not different in different states of
consciousness" loom over these two guys forever.
C: Nabbie with your attention to the details of what I write you could easily
be mistaken for a fanboy.
Yes, this is one of my favorite topics and thanks for reminding me. Let's
revisit it to see if my views have changed
I am denying that Maharishi has made a convincing case for his claim that:
Knowledge is different in different states of consciousness.
The example he used was that when we are sleepy our "knowledge" is different.
When I was a young man, and more easily swayed by my internal feelings when
thinking, I agreed with him. But now I do not find this to be the case. As an
adult professional I have learned how to functions at a certain level mentally
no matter what my level of rest or fatigue. My "knowledge" is not significantly
affected. Being more likely to forget something can happen. But this is a long
way from the breadth of this claim. I would say that fatigue exerts no more
than a 10% influence over my mental abilities. So the comparison falls flat in
my experience. Are you really incapable of doing your job well if you are
tired? Does it make that much of a difference in your functioning really? You
might enjoy it less but that is a different claim.
And as far as extending this into the so called "higher states" as if this
analogy would prove anything about them even if it were true, I call bullshit.
I have seen nothing from any of the so called enlightened guys, Maharishi
included, that couldn't be replicated from anyone familiar with their use of
language and a Hinduism 101 course.
Light some incense:
"The mind is a shallow boat surrounded by the ocean of infinity. The mind
experiences pleasure and pain, It associates with the objects of perception
which sells out the infinite full potential of their inner nature for a
localized, finite experience. When the mind expands into its limitless source,
it becomes one with that infinite nature, and takes on the qualities of
truth,consciousness and bliss awareness, beyond the limitations of space and
time. This is what the ancient rishis called Sat Chit Ananda."
You guess who wrote that from the "knowledge" it contains. Is there anything in
those words that would make it impossible for the writer to be in waking state?
Is there something so different from what a person who was not experiencing
that reality could write, if they knew the language form and structure of the
claims in that philosophy? Can you really tell if that was real or Memorex?
So Nabbie, you defend your teachers assertion that he did not prove. He just
asserted it. Now is your moment to show how your elevated consciousness has
such a superior state of knowledge, that you can turn my objections to ashes
before my eyes. Being scornful of my objections is not an argument. Show us why
we should accept that knowledge is different in different states of
consciousness without resorting to the proof by bogus analogy, blatant
unsupported assertion, or appeal to the authority of Hindu holy books that
Maharishi tried. Do your guru a solid and help him make his case for the
infidels.
But we both know that no one can because you just bought into a belief that
doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Same 3 choices every time you take a swing at me. You can defend your belief
with reasoned argument to convince me where what I wrote was wrong somehow or
missing an important point, you can follow angry Jim and go ad hominem as he
recently did AGAIN, or you can slink away to take another sucker punch another
day, never defending your position or refuting mine with reason, like an
internet troll.
It's a good thing that Richard keep reminding every possible lurker here how
far out of any possible self-insight these two guy's are.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <punditster@...> wrote :
On 11/15/2014 4:23 PM, nablusoss1008wrote:
Sal is adjusting his speak every day now. Watch out, oneof these days he'll
even retract his extremely sillyjudgements on the Crop Circles.
>
"Adjusting his speak" - that's a good one!Apparently he already believes in
tall tales - he has yet to replyto Barry's levitation claims about Rama. Go
figure.
"And I don't just meanexplaining things away, to be convincing you have to show
thatsomething more realistic happened, more credible and usingexplanations we
already understand and are known to happen incertain circumstances." -
salyavin808
>
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,<no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,<sharelong60@...> wrote :
Salyavin,I love your last paragraph: folklore in action;techno ghost stories
for the nuclear age. As forme, I believe there is life somewhere else inthe
vast universe. And I think they are morehighly advanced than us and maybe here
with us.And I think it's great.
Wecan believe what we like. I have no opinion onintelligent life elsewhere, we
don't know thevariables that allow for it to develop. Wecould be unique or the
universe could beteeming or maybe there's just one or two pergalaxy over it's
entire history. But thechances of there being other humanoidsvisiting Earth at
the just same time as we'veunderstood where we are cosmically? It
beggarsbelief. Alien craft is the least likelyexplanation for UFO's. But I hope
it'strue.
But atthat point, I'm more like turq. It doesn'treally impact my life one way
or the other.Either way, what is the action step? (-:
Idon't know, just enjoy the ride, the evolvingmyth. We are apparently on the
brink ofsomething called "disclosure". We've been herebefore a few times as I
recall, it neveramounts to much but it's fun watching the TB'sget excited that
their favourite daydream isto be officially confirmed.
Butit won't be, the UFO's won't land and Maitreyawon't appear. It's the way of
things. Theconnection between the two is that people wantthere to be more, want
there to be a reasonand for there to be salvation from a higherpower, whether
it's alien or spiritual. We'retalking deep human needs here.
From:salyavin808<no_re...@yahoogroups.com>
To:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Saturday, November 15, 2014 3:06 PM
Subject:[FairfieldLife] Re: Okay, let's put it onthe table: UFOs
---infairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com,<no_re...@yahoogroups.com>wrote :
Saldoesn't like UFO's becausethey aren't scientific :-)
It's an interestingpoint Nabs. The thing isone can only getscientific about
somethingif it is available tostudy, UFO's are sofleeting and ephemeralthat
there really isn'tanything to study otherthan hearsay orsuspiciously absent
filmtaken by higher powers tokeep the whole thingsecret.
But a great manypeople have studied whatthey can about UFOsightings, and done
itwith as much rigour as youcan with such a paucity ofhard evidence. I'm
notsure there is an encounterthat hasn't got a betterexplanation that
doesn'tinvolve us being visitedby beings from anotherworld. And I don't
justmean explaining thingsaway, to be convincing youhave to show thatsomething
more realistichappened, more credibleand using explanations wealready
understand and areknown to happen in certaincircumstances. Eventesting soil
damage andskin burns for alternativecauses. People are beingscientific about
UFO's.
But here's the thingyou overlook in your quip,I've been interested inUFO's for
as long as Iremember, I've a got ashelf full of the classicbooks on the
subject. Eventhe true believer stufffrom "serious" researcherslike Timothy Good
and theabductionists like BudHopkins. I bet I know allthe great encounters
byheart - Cortile, Ramirez,Roswell, Pascagoula,Ilkley Moor, Rendlesham...
I love it but Idon't take it at facevalue. Tome, UFO's are folklore inaction.
The evolving mythof abduction and what theyare supposedly doing hereare the
legends of ourtime, a new religion,encapsulating our fearsabout technology
andpromising us freedom fromour destructive ways, yetalways remainingremarkably
evidence free.There's always a newvision to add to themythos but
convenientlynever any hard evidence tohelp decide one way or theother. And the
longer thatscenario goes on the moreconvinced any casualobserver should be that
weare kidding ourselves,because deep down we likeghost stories and that'sreally
what they are.Something scary alwaysjust out of reach. Technoghost stories for
thenuclear age.
FormerAstronaut Explains The UFOCover-Up 2013 1080p HD
|
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|
| |
| FormerAstronautExplains TheUFO Cover-Up2013 ...EdgarDean Mitchell,Sc.D. is
anAmericanpilot, retiredCaptain in theUnited StatesNavy and NASAastronaut.
Asthe lunarmodule pilotof Apollo 14,... |
|
| View on www.youtube.com | Preview by Yahoo |
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---infairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com,<steve.sundur@...>wrote :
I didn't reallyread what sal haswritten below, but Ithink the gist of it
is,that he doesn't like theperson who coined theword "flying saucer"
Is that whathis dissertation isabout this time?
---infairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com,<no_re...@yahoogroups.com>wrote :
Thereis not oneastronaut whohas NOTreported seeingUFO's, sometimeshuge and in
largenubers, back toNASA and/or theirfamilies.
---infairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com,<no_re...@yahoogroups.com>wrote :
---infairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com,<no_re...@yahoogroups.com>wrote :
IfGordon is notcrazy, thenthe Americangovernment
ispurposefully,mindfully,ABSOLUTELYevil.
If there arealiensvisiting usand we're notbeing told --it robs everyperson
onEarth.
EVERY PERSONON EARTH.
Neither you,nor I, noranyone evercould possiblybe who we arenow if we knewthat
UFOs arereal.
IT. WOULD.CHANGE.EVERYTHING.
And that's whyit might bekept a secret-- the concept"money" wouldbe bereft
ofallure.
If you saythat it wouldNOT be "allthat much of abig deal, cuzeveryone's
soinured alreadyby Hollywoodfilms," thenYOU DON'T KNOWJACK SHITABOUTPSYCHOLOGY.
Every personin every way: changed.
Agreed.Luckily Idon;t supposeit will cometo that. Whichis a shame asI'd be
thehappiestperson onEarth if itturned outthat UFO'swere alienspacecraft,but the
truthof sightingsalways turnsout to be moremundane.
Takethe name"flyingsaucers",everyone seessaucer shapedcraft but thename is
amistake fromthe firstencounteranyone had.Kenneth Arnold(anexperiencedpilot)
saw asquadron ofhighlyreflectivecrescentshapedaircraftflying atgreat speed ina
V formationover the Rockymountains in1947. Hedescribed themas flying likea
saucer wouldif skippedacross water.
Ajournalistmade up thename flyingsaucer andafter thateveryone sawsaucer
shapedcraft whenthey sawsomethingmysterious inthe sky. Thepower
ofsuggestion.Sadly there'sno such thingas a reliablewitness andany one can
befooled, Arnoldmost likelysaw a flock ofpelicans andmistook themfor
unknownaircraft andmiscalculatedtheir distancefrom him. Weall makemistakes
butthe influencehis mistakehad isimmeasurable.
Becausewe people areso unreliable,if I had tobet I wouldsay thatCooper
sawsomeatmosphericeffect fromflying atsupersonicspeed that noone hadnoticed
beforeand mistook itfor real craftmoving abovehim.
Andearly radarwas hopelesslyunreliable,the UK airdefence systemin the coldwar
was alwaystelling usthat giantUFOs werecrossing thenorth sea butwhen planeswere
scrambledto look itturned out tohave beentemperatureinversionsconfusing
theequipment.When theseanomalies wereunderstood andironed out UFOreportsstopped
comingin. It's theway it goes,people seestuff andimaginationplugs anygaps,
popularculture isrife withimagery thatcame beforethe sightings.I can't
trustmyself letalone anyoneelse!
Iwould like tosee this filmthey tookthough but, Idon't supposewe ever
will.That's the way
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