The observable world from the single cell organisms all the way to the stars
show a decided lack of karma. It is just a scam created by the ancient Indians.
Pretty good one too - people are still buying into it wholesale.
From: salyavin808 <no_re...@yahoogroups.com>
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2014 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Prarabdha vs Sanchita Karma and Spiritual
Liberation (was Greatest Guru)
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <noozguru@...> wrote :
Enlightenment does not automaticallygive one instant knowledge of Indian
philosophy.
Suits me, I'm not remotely interested in it. I heard that its value was that it
had an analogue in particle physics but it doesn't. Just as well really because
the ability to gain knowledge of the external world by NOT looking at it and
coming up with explanatory ideas for inner visions that explain reality would
be a bitter blow to everyone toiling in laboratories to come up with
fundamental physical ideas.
That's not whatit is about and why so many TM'ers are confused.
But as the philosophy is a description of an experience - at least the journey
to realisation is - the experience itself should be recognisable as the
philosophy. But as the description bears no relation to the kind of world we
know we live in and understand through non-meditative ways of gaining
knowledge, I suspect the description is in error and what we have is a state of
being that only gives one a different impression of the outside world. But one
that we'd struggle to explain so any metaphor is a good starting place I
suppose.
As for the rest of it, people have come up with all sorts of ways of explaining
things, some good and others not so much. Some appear unprovable without a
deeper knowledge of physics than you can get just from looking at things and
coming up with ideas to explain them - which is how all things are known. Karma
seems like one of those, it sounds like a good idea but it's underlying
principle is anthropomorphic and has no parallel in the external world. On TM
courses they tell you that quantum physics explains karma but it doesn't, all
it explains is the behaviour of subatomic particles.
So unless it isn't a neurophysiological state, enlightenment will be the same
whether you know anything about Indian philosophy or not. Wouldn't it?
On 12/09/2014 09:15 AM, seerdope@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:
It appears that at least some who seek orfeelthat they are have realized an
enlightened state --- andtalk and walk withinthe broad framework of vedic /
hindu / yogic / buddhist/ tantric traditions,have very limited understanding of
the types and rangeof karma within thosetraditions(1) resulting in
oddpronouncements and claims, as well as aglaring absence of understanding of
what realization andliberation actuallymean within the traditions in which they
practice. Attimes further obfuscatedby their critics' lack of such. The lack
of understanding of thedistinctionsbetween prarabdha and sanchita karma is an
example. Tome, that presentsa large red flag -- regardless of whether I
accept thetheories of karma,reincarnation, realization, liberation, etc. That
is,if a person hasconsistently practiced methods with these traditions,uses the
vernacular ofthese traditions to describe their experiences, and usecriteria
from thesetraditions to claim various attainments -- then, for me,it is
highlyinconsistent and strong warning signal if theirunderstanding,
words,experiences, self-appraisals of their actions and itseffects indicate
littleto no conceptual and experiential understanding of thedistinct types of
karmas-- which is perhaps the most fundamental core factorwhich affects
anyrealization or liberation within these traditions. I can appreciate these
inconsistencies andactaccordingly (2) without myself necessarily accepting
thetheories of karma,reincarnation, liberation, etc.). That is I hold them
ashypotheses which, whilehaving some explanatory power, are not
particularlysuited to repeated largescale double-blind placebo based studies.
Nor are a lotof other thingsin life -- so one muddles along as best they can.
Overmy life, I have observeda number of interesting points of possible
supportingevidence. All of which Irealize may be spurious correlations and
worthless. Onthe other hand,these have at least kept the door open on my
rational,skeptical mind to thepossible validity of these traditional
knowledgetheories. From these traditions' view("traditionally") if one is
incarnate, everyone,including fullyrealized, liberated ones. all still have
prarabdha(3)karma that must be livedout. No way around it. Further, every
incarnate being isgenerating kriyamanakarma (karma generated in this life) to
the last breath.And kriyamana karmahas or will have its full effect, regardless
of one’sstate, realized/liberatedor not. Bad Kriyamanakarmawill have
corresponding effects. There is no free lunch, no freebies, no license to
actbadly. Kriyamanakarma may return quickly, or later in this life, orsimply
add to the largestockpile of sanchita karma yet to be taken on inprarabdhic
chunks in futurelives. However, with various practices, whenidentity with
tightly bound sense of individuality lessens or ceases, returning karma may
beexperienced moreas a drop in a bucket than a torrential rainstorm.
Traditionally, burning off ones karma hasnothing to do with this life, that is
one does not burnoff prarabdha andkriyamana karmas. It is sanchita karma, the
underlying,hidden from view karma that is burned off (or seeds in causal
body"roasted") --the mountain of karma yet to be resolved 1) in futurelives,
and or 2) througheffective practices in this or future incarnations. (Old MMY
story -- MMY: "you all have amountain of karma". Charlie Lutes: (apparently
assuminghe was far aheadof the pack): "M. do I have a mountain of karma
left?".MMY: "NoCharlie. You have more like a huge mountain range ofkarma
left.") A lot of practices such as those thatpromiseand look towards "support
of nature" and focus onsuccess in worldlylife as distinct signs of spiritual
progress, as well aspractices such assponsoring yagyas, etc. are focussed on
reducing theintensity of this currentlife (prarabdha and kriyamana) karmas. Not
a bad thingin itself. However, it ispossible one can pursue such practices
andfeel better, life becomes more successful, obstacles areremoved, etc
--without materially affecting sanchita karma, and thusnot affecting
onesprogress towards realization and liberation. And such practices can
expand onesidentity,loosen the shackles of the mind and apparently provide
asense of freedom --which may be confused with real liberation --- withoutmuch
affecting theremaining range of sanchita karma and the need to keepcoming back
to resolvesuch past karma. Traditionally, liberation / realization
isnotobtained until sanchita karma is fully burned / resolved/ roasted. Thus
ifsomeone claims liberation (within vedic / hindu / yogic/ buddhist framework
ofpractices, descriptions, vocabulary, etc) but has noclue about sanchita
karma,caution may be prudent. (1) And while there are variations
ofunderstandings the keypoints regarding karma seem fairlyconsistent across the
considerable number of sects andpaths across these multiple traditions. (2)
as in my quip "Run Forest Run" --a line I liked in (what I I believe was) a
prior Curtispost (lets callit an homage instead of plagiarism). (3)
Traditionally the intensity of sometypes ofprarabdha and kriyamana karma can be
reduced throughvarious practices butgenerally not eliminated.
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