Dear a_non,
Boy I'd hate to be someone else trying to follow the voices in this
thread. Anyway, thank you for responding. I liked your responses.
BTW, I'm not a regular reader here. So when I found you mocking
Peter et al ("mocking" being your word for what you were doing), I
wondered about it.
Many of your points have merit. As for me, I'm just waiting to see
what clarity of understanding grows (in this mind/intellect) as the
light shines forth more and more.
My vote for point most moving on the feeling level in your post:
> All of this is interesting, quite a foundational shift. Or what I
term
> a CORE shift. What one thought was the core of ones life is not the
> core. "Something" else is found to be the core.
>
> ====== to be continued in a later post =======
I hope that you do. Thanks - another anon.
********** ORIG POST ************
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Another Anon has comments inserted below.
>
> Good questions. Responses interspersed below.
>
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If someone is having "enlightenment" experiences or is
> > > > stabilized as Self and talks about an ego, I don't
> > > > doubt their experiences, I just wonder what it is they
> > > > are referring to when they say "ego." When I say in
> > > > enlightenmernt that there is no ego what I mean is
> > > > that there is no subjective self. There is no "me".
> > > > The pronoun "me" or "I" doesn't refer to anything. The
> > > > mind looks for something and there is nothing there,
> > > > literally. In waking state the mind turns inward and
> > > > experiences a thought/feeling sense of an individual;
> > > > a private "me." This is what disappears in CC. There
> > > > is just consciousness and then everything else
> > > > (objective and subjective). You could say, "I am pure
> > > > consciousness", but the problem with this is that
> > > > there is no "I" to be or not to be anything. There is
> > > > just consciousness and objects that are not
> > > > consciousness. Thoughts and feelings are there, but
> > > > there is no "I" having these or taking ownership of
> > > > these subjective experiences.
> > > >
> > > All that is good and fine.
> >
> > ^^^^^
> > So that means that you accept Peter at his word for what his
> > experience is?
>
> I do. I think Peter is a sincere and honorable guy. However, I do
> believe that misinterpretation and cognitive errors may be
involved in
> his reporting of his experiences. As with all of us. And his often
> absolutist and universality of his proclamations can be
problematic.
>
> > What about the others (Tom T, Michael G, Jim, Rory,
> > other?)
>
> I believe that misinterpretation and cognitive errors may be
involved
> here also. And other factors (for some not all). Among these issues
> are very active imaginations, almost imagineering of experiences.
And
> lots of reading of many sources which seems to taint the
descriptions.
> For some it does not feels "digested" and personally reported but
> rather parroting from what has been heard or read. And some appear
to
> have an intense ownership of their thoughts and ideas, very thin
> skinned to questions and challenging of their ideas. Not that these
> factors make them insincere, but they are factors that could be
> involved in something more than solely a deep
personal "struggling" to
> try to convey personal experiences.
>
> (Ownership of ideas to me indicates a lingering identiy with the
mind
> and its products. A situation which contractices the basic
> "definition(s)" of "enlightenment")
>
>
> >In other words, are you expressing doubts only about the
> > terminology used and the universality and/or significance of
their
> > experiences? or are you also expressing doubts about what they
say
> > are their experiences as well?
>
> I try to take them at their word. My main concern is that, upon
doing
> so, they have different definitions of enlightenment (and some
> struggle to even define the criteria for such), and are reporting
> different experiences. Thus, my point is that use of terms like
> "enlightenment" and "awakinging" are meaningless in discussions
such
> as we have on FFL. Talk then focuuses on an abstraction, a label.
> Worse yet, its a label with many meanings for many people.
>
> On the other had, simply talking about a direct experience, such as
> "wakefulness during sleep" can be good and useful.
>
> > In my own case, I experience a subjective sense of localized
> > individual self, and have trouble imagining what it would be
like to
> > be conscious and functional and not have that subjective sense.
>
> A bit of that may be good, but as you seem to say, it quickly
leads to
> the conclusion that it can't be done. Use of the intellect is NOT
to
> figure out what IT is, but rather to figure out what IT is not.
Neti
> neti, "the dog who didn't bark" sort of thing..
>
> > On
> > the other hand, people report not having this sense, and don't
> > report it as a liability or a psychologically or neurologically
> > dysfunctional condition. Rather, they report it as some kind of
> > more "realized" improvement over having a subjective sense of
> > localized individual self. So I'm inclined to have an open mind
on
> > this as a possibility. I was wondering where you stood on this.
>
> I think we all have some experience of Consciousness in silence and
> activity. IT glowing within ITself. I also find an intellectual
> understanding, and then a Groking of body, mind and intellect
acting
> by themselves according to their own natures.
>
> All of this is interesting, quite a foundational shift. Or what I
term
> a CORE shift. What one thought was the core of ones life is not the
> core. "Something" else is found to be the core.
>
> ====== to be continued in a later post =======
>
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