--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hermandan0 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: <snip> > Whatever the provenance of the Estes Park quote and whether it > is referring to effortless thinking of the mantra, Maharishi > still said what I'm saying he did. Sorry, I can't quote you the > exact tape but it was one of the ushers on the course who raised > the point that thoughts just come into his head spontaneously > and randomly, but the mantra *gets* thought and that seems to be > a contradiction. MMY laughed and agreed it was a contradiction, > resloving it in the way I explained.
I'm not challenging that at all, except to say that after some experience of TM, the mantra no longer "gets thought" but arises spontaneously, just like any other thought. > > but > > > Maharishi was quite clear that there is some "doing" in > > > the thinking/picking up of the mantra and that, yes, this > > > is a contradictory to the mantra just appearing on its > > > own. That's why the the instruction to think or pick up > > > the mantra is qualified by saying "effortlessy" or "as > > > effortessly as a thought comes". Of course one is thinking > > > and of course thinking is doing. It may be an effortless > > > doing, but it's a doing. > > > > I think there may be a semantic issue here with > > regard to "doing." If, as you say, "doing" can be > > effortless, it seems like a distinction without a > > difference. > > That's a good part of my point. The issue is largely semantic and > that's why I said that IMO "it is not incorrect" to word it the way > Vaj does. It's not a reason for denying the point. If by "subtle effort" he means "effortless doing," then I wouldn't disagree with him. But I don't think that's what he means. Remember he also says there is "mindfulness" involved in realizing one isn't thinking the mantra. <snip> > > In my understanding, intentionally picking up the > > mantra is done only when the mantra does not come > > on its own. > > Coming on its own is effortless thinking, yes. But if > it doesn't come on its own you pick it up--effortlessly. Right. That's the instruction for when it doesn't come on its own. > > In my experience, the recognition that I am not > > thinking the mantra arises spontaneously, without > > any intention or "mindfulness"; and the mantra > > is there, also spontaneously, immediately following > > that recognition. At that point it would require > > effort *not* to think the mantra. > > > > This may not be what occurs for beginning TMers, > > but I'd suggest that it becomes the case, for > > most people, at least, after some experience of > > TM practice. > > Sure, the *effortless thinking* of the mantra becomes a > well-established habit. But it is still thinking/picking > up the mantra. But there's no *volition* involved. The thought of no-mantra automatically invokes the thought of mantra (sort of like "Don't think of an elephant"): No mantra...mantra...mantra...mantra... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
