--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I've been digging the Sam Harris discussion. I haven't had > the time to be generative, but I have enjoyed checking in and > seeing some detailed thoughts on his debate. I look forward > to your definitions in this discussion. I do believe in > different ways of people's functioning so I have to give more > thought to what it means to me.
The basic problem with the question, as I see it, is that enlightenment is a purely subjective phenomenon. So the *real* question is, do you believe there are any ways that the phenomenon manifests *objectively*, such that there are any grounds for others to believe a person is enlightened? If so, then it gets really complicated, because you have to define "objective" in this context. Does it mean "perceptible to all observers" (one of the dictionary definitions), or just to some? Does it refer to sensory perception? Or could a well-defined subjective experience, such as Barry's criterion of experiencing samadhi in the presence of the person when they are meditating, constitute an "objective" perception in this context? On the other hand, if there aren't any reliable "objective" criteria, however one defines "objective"--let's just say for now that "objective" means "so other people can tell"-- then any criteria for believing someone is enlightened must themselves be purely subjective. In that case a "gut feeling" is no more nor less definitive than a list of specifics (even if one or more of the specifics has to do with a well- defined subjective experience, such as Barry's). My personal guess is that there are no reliable criteria of enlightenment such that other people can tell whether someone is enlightened, and that any specific criteria one might list are all after-the-fact rationalizations of a "gut feeling." So I don't really think the original question is very meaningful; and given Barry's responses to others' comments, it seems pretty clear that it was intended to serve as a vehicle for putdowns by Barry of those who don't come up with a list of specific criteria.
