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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Bogey's Blood Test Today These look worse PG 2
(Sherri Godschalk)
2. Re: FW: Questioning FELV diagnosis (Ardy Robertson)
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 20:25:39 -0500
From: Sherri Godschalk To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Bogey's Blood Test
Today These look worse PG 2
Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Well I am not sure he noticed some of the increases on page 2 here. It
seems
like all of these are going the wrong direction. She isn?t showing any
jaundice and her gait is much improved but still having some issues
with
balance. I ask them to run the full battery of blood tests today but
it
doesn?t look like they did. Do you all agree that these numbers are
not
better but in fact worse than when they released her on Dec 14th?
Scale 20-Dec 14-Dec 12-Dec
GLU 74-159 122 125 178
BUN 16-36 21 14 23
CREA 08-2.4 1.1 0.8 1.3
BUN/CREA 19 18 18
PHOS 3.1-7.5 4.5
CA 7.8-11.3 9.8 TP 5.7-8.9 8.1 7.9 8.7
ALB 2.2-4.0 3.4 2.9 3.1
GLOB 2.8-5.1 4.7 5 5.6
ALB/GLB 0.7 0.6 0.6
ALT 12-130 581 192 237
ALKP 14-111 81 42 39
GGT 0-4 8 TBIL .0-.9 27.2 27.9
CHOL 65-225 170 AMYL 500-1500 842
LIPA 100-1400 255
NA 150-165 158 K 3.5-5.8 3.4 NA/K 46 CL 112-129 114
OSM CALC 318 Sherri
From: Felvtalk on behalf of Randy
Henke Reply-To: Date: Tuesday, December 20, 2016 at 4:54 PM
To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Bogey's Blood Test Today
That is phenomenal, Sherri! I'm hoping for a repeat of that
performance with
our girl, Curly.
On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Sherri Godschalk wrote:
Bogey is still improving. The Dr came out to talk with me himself
instead of
sending out a tech. Never does that. He said everything looked good
except her
red blood cells have gotten smaller but there are more of them. As
well as him
being concerned about infection since her WBC and NEU are elevated. I
read
that can be from pred and he gave her a shot of it before he sent her
home
last week when normally I gave her a pill each day. He wants me to
start her
back on the Doxy and Winstrol but not the pred yet. I still feel like
it might
be soon on the Winstrol since she hasn't been out of the hospital for
even a
week yet. I will post the 2nd page of the blood test later if anyone
is
interested. But LOOK at the Platelet count...go Bogey!
Range 20-Dec 12-Dec 26-Oct 30-Sep 16-Sep 24-Aug
RBC 6.54 12.2 5.57 4.99 2.54 2.9 2.57 2.43
HCT 30.3 52.3 30.9 35.1 14.8 17.9 15.3 15.3
HGB 9.8 16.2 10.2 10.4 5.2 6.2 5.5 5.3
MCV 35.9 53.1 55.5 70.3 58.3 61.7 59.1 62.6
MCH 11.8 17.3 18.3 20.8 20.5 21.4 21.4 21.8
MCHC 28.1 35.8 33 29.6 35.1 34.6 36.2 34.9
RDW 15 27 23.8 22.2 24.5 25.2 23.7 23.9
RETIC 3 50 37.3 27.4 89.9 82.1 78.1 61.5
WBC 2.87 17.02 22.34 8.59 13.05 12.01 14.47 13.46
NEU 1.48 10.29 15.82 5.42 3.97 3.96 4.07 4.03
LYM 0.92 6.88 3.98 2.21 7.8 6.81 8.83 7.75
MONO 0.05 0.67 1.89 0.87 1.16 1.17 1.52 1.58
EOS 0.17 1.57 0.49 0.08 0.11 0.06 0.004 0.01
BASO 0.01 0.26 0.16 0.01 0.01 0.01 0.01 0
PLT 151 800 295 122 28 53 88 50
0
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 21:46:37 -0600
From: "Ardy Robertson" To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning
FELV diagnosis
Message-ID: <012c01d25b3c$d67ac0a0$837041e0$@centurytel.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Best of luck to you with Curly ---- just wanted to mention there are
appetite stimulant pills available. One that I remember that I used
with Tigger was Mirtazapine and I only had to give a small part of a
pill every 3 days. Amani knows of another one but I can?t remember the
name of it.
Ardy
From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On Behalf
Of Randy Henke
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 8:10 PM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Questioning FELV diagnosis
Our vet must be one of the good ones. He approved both Winstrol and
Doxycycline even though he has never used them for FELV positive cats.
We'll be adding those onto Curly's Prednisone as soon as we get them.
So far she is hanging in there. She only eats Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers
(about a small can every other day) but her weight is holding around 7
pounds. About a half pound below her best weight before she got sick.
She still gets up to get drinks of water and use the litter box and
she is still grooming herself. She wants very little social
interaction which is not like her at all and she has very little
energy, preferring to stay on the bed almost all of the time. Her
breathing is also fairly rapid and has been for quite a few days.
Hopefully this will be another success story for your kitty cocktail.
We'll owe you much if it works.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Amani Oakley > wrote:
Randy
I really don?t know. I have only had experience with the pills which I
found very effective. As a compromise option, I would take if that is
the only way the vet will agree to proceed.
Amani
From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org ] On
Behalf Of Randy Henke
Sent: December-19-16 9:46 AM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW:
Questioning FELV diagnosis
Hi Amani,
I have a call in to our vet now about the Winstrol and Doxycycline.
I've read that there is also the option of getting a weekly shot of
Winstrol as opposed to the pills. If our vet balks at prescribing the
pills but would be willing to give her the shot would it still work as
well?
On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 7:12 PM, Amani Oakley > wrote:
Wishing you luck.
Amani
From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org ] On
Behalf Of Randy Henke
Sent: December-16-16 8:12 PM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW:
Questioning FELV diagnosis
Thank you, Amani! I'll see what I can do to convince the vet on
Monday.
On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Amani Oakley > wrote:
1 mg 2 times a day.
Amani
From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org ] On
Behalf Of Randy Henke
Sent: December-16-16 7:52 PM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW:
Questioning FELV diagnosis
That is information that is definitely useful to me! Thanks so much!
Do you know what dosage of Winstrol I should ask for for a 6.8 pound
cat? I want to have as much info as possible when I talk to my vet on
Monday.
On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Amani Oakley > wrote:
No Randy, Winstrol is an anabolic steroid (unlike prednisone which is
a corticosteroid) so it does not have a dampening effect on the immune
system. What you need right now is something to stimulate red cell
production. If your cat has FELV, then the problem is that the
progenitor cells in the bone marrow will have been infiltrated/killed
by the virus and thus, the red cell production is down. Red cells have
a life span of 120 days in circulation, so once that is over and they
die, then they must be replenished by a steady supply of new cells
from the bone marrow.
The only thing I have found that will do that is Winstrol. However, I
use it in a cocktail with Doxycycline which has been found to retard
the reproduction of viral RNA, and prednisone. This is the only
combination of drugs that worked when my cat was in FELV crisis and
had a haematocrit result of 5 (with the reference range being
something like 25 to 35, off the top of my head). I had tried LTCI and
interferon and even though I tested his blood weekly, I saw no
change/improvement at all in his red cell count, haematocrit,
hemoglobin, platelets, etc. It was only when I stumbled upon the use
of Winstrol (he was already on prednisone and Doxy, but they don?t
work without the Winstrol), that I saw a steady and sustained
improvement in his haematology numbers.
The scandal, Randy, is that Winstrol is one of the steroids often
implicated in athletic doping scandals, so vets seem to be gun shy
about prescribing it. Also, some years ago, a very poorly conducted
experiment was published where cats where given 10 times the
recommended dose of Winstrol as a ?loading dose? and developed liver
problems. So between these two driving forces, you have a lot of
uneducated vets who will either think you are ?unethical? for asking
for the Winstrol, or believe it is a harmful drug thanks to the stupid
scientific study that was published. Plus, even where they are willing
to prescribe it (like in Sherri?s case) they don?t recognize the need
to couple it with the Doxycycline, and thus, you do get a weak boost
of the red cells, etc., but the virus is reproducing rampantly, so in
the end, the virus wins. (Then, of course, not recognizing the need
for the Doxy, those same vets will view the use of Winstrol as a
failure and not likely use it again.)
Other medications that might increase red cell production are
erythropoietin and related medications, but erythropoietin does not
encourage bone marrow growth and development as Winstrol does. Thus,
if the progenitor cells in the bone marrow, which produce red cells,
white cells and platelets, have been killed by the virus (or converted
to infected cells, spewing out more virus) then the erythropoietin
will not be effective because it simply encourages those progenitor
cells to produce more red cells. However, because they can?t and thus
cannot respond to the stimulation by erythropoietin. (If your cat
doesn?t have FELV, and has anemia because of some other cause, then
the erythropoietin might work.)
Winstrol stimulates bone production (experiments have used it
effectively in older adults for osteoporosis), and I don?t anything
else which fits the bill.
Cats with FELV often also have lymphocytes lining the intestinal
walls, or other problems with moving food through the intestines. My
cat did, and that resulted in (a) loss of appetite (b) vomiting and
(c) slow bowel movements. I therefore found it necessary to add a ?
tablet of metoclompromine (Reglen) before meal times twice a day.
Worked like a charm.
This cocktail then brought my baby back from the brink of certain
death. I had given him blood transfusions with his anemia, but that is
only a short-term solution and he wasn?t producing any red cells
(reticulocyte count was basically zero ? this is a measure of new red
cell production and should be increased in cases of anemia to
demonstrate that the body is producing red cells to compensate for the
reduced red cell count). He had had a reaction with his last blood
transfusion, and so no more transfusions were possible since the next
one would kill him, and I was all out of options as I watched his
haematocrit level drop lower and lower, week by week. It had dropped
to 10 when I ?discovered? an old bottle of Winstrol in my drawer.
Whew. Guess how many times I have given this speech??
Amani
From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On Behalf
Of Randy Henke
Sent: December-16-16 9:15 AM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Questioning
FELV diagnosis
It's interesting that our vet was very hesitant about even prescribing
Prednisone because he is afraid it will suppress her immunity to
secondary infections. I know that is a risk. Would adding Winstrol
suppress her immune system even further? I'm very confused about how
to proceed.
On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Ardy Robertson > wrote:
If I can chime in on Winstrol, it did wonders on my Tigger to get his
bloodwork up. I only wish I had started it sooner, along with the
prednisolone and doxycycline.
Best of luck!
Ardy
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