On 9 Nov 2003 at 18:18, John.Howell wrote: > David Fenton wrote: > > >But how much will string players know to do already, simply because > >they are familiar with the style? > > If they are really familiar with the style it will certainly affect > their playing. Your anecdote about coaching young players in the > Mendelssohn trio demonstrates perfectly that these are learned > responses, not innate ones. . . .
Only one of these three students was naturally musical, it seemed to me (the violist, if you can imagine ;), and it seemed like they could not maintain a tempo at anything beyond a molto boring moderato. Whenever I made them play faster, they played more musically, with more profile. > . . . Yes, students have to be led through the > details of any style they aren't familiar with. . . . I didn't quite understand how music students of this age could be that unfamiliar with the style. They were all music majors, one of them in college, and the other both being 2003 high school graduate on her way to college in the fall. They did have the sense to understand that they didn't know what to do and asked me for help (I wasn't their scheduled coach -- they were reading the piece for the first time and didn't understand it). > . . . It's only over time > that they internalize the details and are able to apply them on their > own. It may be worth noting that Bach wrote in many more ornaments in > his soprano and alto arias, for the boys who were still learning, than > he did in his tenor and bass arias. A good point, yes. > >We do this kind of thing all the time with Bach and Mozart, don't we? > >Or am I just too immersed in early music that I haven't a clue what > >can be expected stylistically from "professionally-trained" > >musicians? > > No, you're just a very good musician who might not even remember a > time when you didn't already know these things. I don't consider myself a good musician, so much as experienced and well-trained. I do remember when I didn't know these things -- it was before I started piano lessons. But style was what I was taught from my very first lesson (I already read music and played at a fairly advanced level before taking my first lesson). > >I haven't really added any articulations, though in the viola 2 part > >of mm. 2-4, I've offered an alternate articulation. > > And that added articulation would make the style more clear to > someone who is not as familiar with it. Well, the people for whom this was speculatively transcribed would are three extremely fine musicians (one a member of the San Francisco Symphony), so I don't see that I need to indicate what seems perfectly obvious to me (and should be to them, as well). > >Of the changed bowings, I've marked the ones I think really help with > >"x" and the ones I'm totally unconvinced serve any purpose with "y". > >Those latter also cause problems with the musical character, in my > >opinion. I'm conceiving the tempo at around 140 to the quarter, so > >it's fairly fast, and I see no problems with the wind tonguings > >working fine as bowings. > > > >Comments? > > I assume that the solid slurs are from the original and the dashed > ones possible changes. Yes. > Bar 2: I would mark the first 8th note down bow. OK, I was forgetting about this part of -- I'm accustomed to French Baroque bowing rules and to me, that would be a downbow automatically. That's my problem, of course -- I don't automatically think like a modern string player. > Bar 6: Yes, break the V2 slur; no, don't break the C slur; you want > them to come out downbow on the downbeat of bar 7. You're assuming that I assumed the cello's m. 5 to start downbow. To me it's so obviously upbeat that it ought to be upbow. That makes it work out with my changed bowing, and I think the effect is musically correct (at least the way I interpret bass lines). Again, my mind doesn't think in terms of modern bowings. > . . . Bar 9: breaking > the C slur is good, and will bring downbow on bar 11. > Bar 12-14: Slurring duplets in V2 doesn't improve it, but you might > mark bar 13 with downbow on the downbeat continuing downbow with > the next 3 notes. That can be done with two downbows, or by > slurring all 4 notes but putting the dot on the first one. I certainly think the two-note slurs don't help much, but I was looking at musical contour there. That's why I marked them as something I didn't like. The problem is m. 12 > . . . Bar 16: I would ask V1 to start upbow, which will emphasize the > written appoggiatura in bar 17. Same thing will happen automatically in > the lower parts in 20-21. . . . See, to me, m. 16 being upbow is obvious -- it's upbeat, and therefore should be upbow. *sigh* > . . . Bars 24-25: I would mark the sfortzandi downbow, at least > the first one. Seems to me that only the cello needs that, as everyone else will automatically end up on downbow. I worry about putting in too many bowings that would cause them to think they'd ended up wrong. > This should sound quite lovely and quite appropriate in strings. I > don't think we have any disagreements at all about articulations, but > we both understand the style. My suggestions are mostly in the matter > of bowings. There are string players for whom it is gospel to "take > it as it comes," and that gets in the way of artistic phrasing. And > yes, experienced players would probably do more or less as I have > suggested, but by helping the players not have to take rehearsal time > to make these decisions you are doing them a service. Well, I think I think of "bowings" as the slurs themselves, and don't think about the up/down bowing, which I know perfectly well as a gamba player is everything. I do know that I recently prepared my Deep River arrangement for a quick read-through, and was very careful to create an edition with clear bowings so that people would play it right the first time through. It worked great, actually. So, I guess I should apply that thinking to this arrangement. It's strange how one gets so caught up in one's own natural reactions that one doesn't see the obvious. Thanks, Robert. -- David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associates http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
