At 8:33 AM +0100 1/16/07, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
On 16.01.2007 John Howell wrote:
That's also what I had in mind, and I have
always thought that the ripieno indications
were for this purpose.
Is memory betraying me?
Concertino and ripieno go back at least to
Corelli's concertos (which Handel certainly
would have known), and had nothing to do with
how large the ripieno was. Corelli's and
Handel's were rather small, and probably
Vivaldi's as well. And of course 90% or more
of modern performances ignore those
instructions.
I know that, but in the special case of the
Messiah, there is no concertino, but there are
ripieno indications, which seems to suggest that
certain movements used much larger forces (the
amateur back desks) than others.
Interesting that what seems so black-and-white
can be so confusing! In Messiah, since there are
con ripieno indications, by default there ARE
concertino players, but certainly not as featured
soloists. In the operas and oratorios the
orchestra is a backup band. And as you imply,
there may have been more than one on a part. I'd
love to speculate that having learned the
concertino-ripieno sound contrast from Corelli,
Handel simply made it a normal part of his
thinking and writing, whether for opera,
oratorio, or instrumental music, but it might
equally well be for economic reasons. Pay the
better players more and give them more to learn;
pay the lesser players less and require fewer
rehearsals of them.
I've been studying the Water Music score
(Bärenteriter, from the Halle edition). In the
Allegro of the Overture there are definitely two
violin parts for soloists contrasting with two
different parts for the sections, even though
this was outdoor music, and they are labeled
"concertino" and "ripieno" respectively. Of
course no autograph survives, so we can't know
for certain that that was Handel's division of
forces or that those were the terms he used, and
since it was outdoors he might well have used
more than one on a concertino part.
BTW, in the case of Corelli the orchestra was
actually huge by their standards.
I didn't know that. Do we know exactly how big?
John
--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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