On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Marc Renner wrote:
> This is obvious....
Feel free to cite any court case where the NSA has seized the assets of
a US Citizen inside the US. Matter of fact, feel free to cite any
non-adjudicated _investigation_ where it's happened. Go ahead, stretch
it to treason investigations where there wasn't even a computer breach
involved, just make it NSA personnel not FBI personnel.
The Steve Jackson Games case is the only one I'm aware of where a federal
entity seized almost everything in sight. The end result seems to have been
the government paying around $350,000 to the defendents and their counsel.
It's worth noting that it was the USSS and not the NSA, and the resultant
SJG vs USSS case will make such actions less likely to happen again, not
more (Though the PPA portions seem to apply mostly to publishers.)
At one point in a past job I worked on a project to put the Foreign
Counter-Intelligence Manual (FCIM) into a searchable text database, the
FCIM is the operations manual for the FCI, and I read a good part of it.
In another past life, I fielded government machines handling classified data
(where the NSA does have a say) and I'm quite aware of who gets called for
what, and as much as I feel they'd like to have a US-based Operations
detachment to seize things, NSA doesn't get to play that game.
If you read Stohl's _The_Cuckoo's_Egg_, you'll see that the (mostly
ignored, poorly handled) investigation of the jump from Stohl's systems
to the .mil ones was handled by the FBI, and an FCI agent was put on the
case with some DoD investigative services also playing along. Nobody
seized anything though.
Want to try some actual facts this time instead of half-baked rantings?
If you've got something of *substance* that contains fact or experience feel
free to pipe up.
Your original post was uninformed, and plain wrong. Nobody is well
served by making the right decisions for the wrong reasons, most
especially when those reasons are so far off-base and there are perfectly
good reasons for making the same decisions.
AFAICT, we're still waiting on a _civil_ precident for massive seizure
(and worse, damages) due to being used as a jumping point, and the measure in
a civil action is "preponderance of the evidence", not the "beyond a
reasonable doubt" that a government-based criminal action would need.
Feel free to question the substance with actual contesting factual data.
If you want to throw around childish flames, feel free to leave the rest
of the list out of it- it's out-of-charter for the list.
Got facts?
Paul
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Paul D. Robertson "My statements in this message are personal opinions
[EMAIL PROTECTED] which may have no basis whatsoever in fact."
PSB#9280
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