John Collier Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal http://web.ncf.ca/collier
From: John Collier Sent: Tuesday, 28 March 2017 9:39 AM To: 'darvasg' <darv...@iif.hu> Subject: RE: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information” I wrote this a few days ago, but it is still worth posting. I might add that biological entities making choices grades off into cases where there is only one choice. If determinism is true, then there are no real choices. If it is false, that doesn’t help either. There are cases that I have given references to on this list in which information, but no energy leads to step climbing, indicate transformation of information into energy. Though the example was constructed by experimenters, I see nothing that could not result from a fortuitous set of physical circumstances. The movement could be used to trigger an informational even (turn a switch, for example, or select a quantum state), though turning information into information. I suspect there are simpler examples, and leave the list to come up with the. All I wanted to do was to demonstrate principle. We tend to give almost magical properties to life. Thai violates my understanding of General Systems Theory, which applies the same principles to all systems from top to bottom, rather than trying to find everything in the lowest levels, as in physicalism. John Collier Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal http://web.ncf.ca/collier From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of darvasg Sent: Saturday, 25 March 2017 11:40 AM To: fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>; Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com<mailto:mar...@foibg.com>> Subject: Re: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information” Dear Krassimir, They can!!!! For details, see my contrinution to the 2015 Vienna IS4IS meeting and following publications of the proceedings! Best, Gyuri 24.03.2017 16:25 időpontban Krassimir Markov ezt írta: Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues, Let me remember that: The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could "exchange information" leads to many principal theoretical as well as psychological faults. For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or reflections ! Sorry for this n-th my remark ... Friendly greetings Krassimir From: tozziart...@libero.it<mailto:tozziart...@libero.it> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM To: fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> Subject: [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly important? Dear Lars-Göran, I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet, therefore it will be my last FIS mail for the next days. First of all, in special relativity, an observer is NOT by definition a material object that can receive and store incoming energy from other objects. In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which a set of objects or events are being measured. Speaking of an observer is not specifically hypothesizing an individual person who is experiencing events, but rather it is a particular mathematical context which objects and events are to be evaluated from. The effects of special relativity occur whether or not there is a "material object that can recieve and store incoming energy from other objects" within the inertial reference frame to witness them. Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light) that crosses a cosmic zone close to the sun. The photon "detects" (and therefore can interact with) a huge sun surface (because of its high speed), while we humans on the Earth "detect" (and can interact with) a much smaller sun surface. Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than the humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the same sun, but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore they may exchange with the sun a different information content. If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost infinite, fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much more information with the sun than we humans can. In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed and of the time of the "observer". Arturo Tozzi AA Professor Physics, University North Texas Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ ----Messaggio originale---- Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson" <lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se<mailto:lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se>> Data: 24/03/2017 14.50 A: "tozziart...@libero.it<mailto:tozziart...@libero.it>"<tozziart...@libero.it<mailto:tozziart...@libero.it>> Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is information truly important? 24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev tozziart...@libero.it<mailto:tozziart...@libero.it>: Dear Fisers, a big doubt... We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to its 2D horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations. However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who watches a black hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon, due to Einstein's equations. Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than an observer at rest, who sees a smaller horizon... An observer is by definition a material object that can recieve and store incoming energy from other objects. Since it requires infinite energy to accelerate even a slighest object to the velocity of light, no observer can travel at the speed of light. That means that your thought experiment is based in inconsistent assumptions and no vaild conclusions from them can be drawn. Lars-Göran Johansson In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just a very subjective measure... Arturo Tozzi AA Professor Physics, University North Texas Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ _______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis Lars-Göran Johansson lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se<mailto:lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se> 0701-679178 ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis _______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
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