Loet --
On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Loet Leydesdorff <l...@leydesdorff.net> wrote: Dear Stan, Wasn’t it Tycho Brahe’s suscipio descipiendo, descipio suscipiendo? Nothing but uncertainty; if order emerges, selection mechanisms must have been specified. S: If uncertainty emerges, particular choices must have been specified. I hesitate: it seems to me that randomness (maximal uncertainty) is the basic assumption and that order needs to be explained. I should explain a bit more fully. By 'uncertainty', I was using this term to label the situation where definite choices appear to an agent that must choose a path or action. So, my view implies an ordered (First Person) agency. This agency could be as simple as an abiotic dissipative structure. So, I see that an ordered agency needs to accompany uncertainty, and, indeed, helps to locate the situation of any such agent. If we go to a more primitive (purely physical, or Peircean 'tychastic') situation, without any agents, this is where I would say there can be no uncertainty -- unless a Third Person (another agent) is observing that physical situation. So, if you can "explain order" you will have implicitly explained uncertainty as well. Thus, we could parse the evolutionary situation as {Gaussian physical locale -> {added bounding constraints -> {emerged agency}}}, with uncertainty coming in in the innermost subclass. STAN Otherwise, I agree with most of your points. We should not move too easily from probability functions to (continuous) probability density functions. The Shannon formulas provide us with a calculus in the discrete domain, that is, the one where differences prevail. Best wishes, Loet In reply to the above, Loet added: My reply was not based on assuming agency, but on Shannon-type information. Observed information (by an agent) should be distinguished from expected information. It was my point that there could not be expectation unless there was an observer, even if that observer was of the most general kind. That is, both expectation and observer would have to have been the products of evolution. Perhaps, you can appreciate this difference in our assumptions in your reply to the list? If one assumes that our physical (mathematical) constructs predate the origin of Western-style science, then your point is well-taken. STAN Best wishes, Loet
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