Dear all, Happy the New Year of 2014 and the coming Chinese New Year of the horse (to be successful when the horse comes!) I would like to say that John's work on the collection of literature of PI and the very idea of Information is really helpful, thanks! Cheers, Xiaohong XJTU-ICPI
-------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: John Collier <colli...@ukzn.ac.za> To: fis <fis@listas.unizar.es> Subject: Re: [Fis] Information, signals and data. Date: 2014-01-14 13:58 Dear FIS members, Information has various scientific usages, and it is important for people to be clear which one they mean. None of the meanings is canonical, but they can be put in relation to each other, as I do in Kinds of Information in Scientific Use. 2011. cognition, communication, co-operation. Vol 9, No 2. Another good source dealing with relations of different concepts of information is Luciano Floridi's elementary book, Information A Very Short Introduction (Oxford University Press, 2010). Also The Philosophy of Information (Oxford University Press, 2011). I recommend these to people on the FIS list to those who cannot get their minds around the idea that the information concept has a wide range of diverse uses that are nonetheless related to each other. Floridi is especially good on the issues of signals versus data versus interpreted information. All are information in the most general sense on his account. On the issue of the first use of information theory, I note that Shannon, C.E. (1948), "A Mathematical Theory of Communication", Bell System Technical Journal, 27, pp. 379423 & 623656, July & October, 1948. uses 'information' extensively as what is communicated, so the title could have easily been A mathematical theory of communication of information. The article is widely regarded as the foundation of information theory. However Hartely's 1928 paper, "Transmission of Information", Bell System Technical Journal, July 1928 is much earlier. Szillard made the connection between information and physics in his L. Szilárd (1929) "Über die Entropieverminderung in einem thermodynamischen System bei Eingriffen intelligenter Wesen" (On the reduction of entropy in a thermodynamic system by the intervention of intelligent beings), Zeitschrift für Physik, 53 : 840-856. Available on-line in English at: Aurellen.org (see also Leon Brillouin, Science and Information Theory, Mineola, N.Y.: Dover, [1956, 1962] 2004. ISBN 0-486-43918-6). It is unclear to me who introduced the actual term 'information theory', but it was in common use after 1948. The following might be instructive: http://web.mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2001/Shannon2.pdf Cheers, John At 05:42 AM 2014-01-13, Xueshan wrote: Dear Rafael, I am sure you were right in "what is communicated between a sender and a receiver is NOT information but a MESSAGE", I can provide you more supports from Biology. Between two nerve cells, between gland cell and target cell, it is MESSENGERS but not others which carry MESSAGE from sender to receiver, this is the situation in first messenger theory. In second messenger theory, not message or information, they call it SIGNAL. In computer science, DATA some time was adopted, such as Data Structure, Data Bank, Data Mining. No matter what happens, all message, signal etc. should recognize as a special usage of information. This is an interesting history in past related information explorations. But in modern science, such in semiochemistry, when talk about the effects of pheromones, allomones, kairomones, attractants, repellents, most Chemists like to use information rather then signal (or message). First and last, shall we consider INFORMATION as genus and MESSAGE, news, knowledge, etc. as its differentia? By the way, who knows who are the first people who called Shannon's "Mathematical Theory of Communication" as "Information Theory"? What time? Where? Best wishes, Xueshan 20:45, January 13, 2014 Peking University > -----Original Message----- > From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es > [ mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of > fis-requ...@listas.unizar.es > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 6:45 PM > To: fis@listas.unizar.es > Subject: fis Digest, Vol 579, Issue 18 > > Send fis mailing list submissions to > fis@listas.unizar.es > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > fis-requ...@listas.unizar.es > > You can reach the person managing the list at > fis-ow...@listas.unizar.es > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific than "Re: Contents of fis digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Fw: Responses (Rafael Capurro) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 11:30:20 +0100 > From: Rafael Capurro <raf...@capurro.de> > Subject: Re: [Fis] Fw: Responses > To: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se>, Hans von > Baeyer <henrikrit...@gmail.com>, Joseph Brenner > <joe.bren...@bluewin.ch>, fis <fis@listas.unizar.es> > Message-ID: <52d11d3c.3040...@capurro.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear Gordana, > > what is communicated between a sender and a receiver is NOT > information but a MESSAGE > And: the title of Shannon's paper is NOT theory of > information but theory of communication There are too many > misunderstandings in this discussion best Rafael > > > > Dear Hans, Joseph, Loet, All > > > > > > Loet: It seems to me that there is at least one > alternative: Shannon's > > mathematical theory of information. Information is then defined as > > content-free. > > > > Gordana: There is a link between Shannon information and > information > > for an agent (meaningful, semantic information).// > > > > What we call "context-free" is actually "fixed context". In > Shannon's > > case, information is that which is communicated between a > sender and a > > receiver. That means we can look at the world as a complex > system of > > agents within agents communicating Shannon information. This can be > > useful even in understanding of cognitive agents, if we define > > cognition broadly and accept that bacteria and any other kind of > > living being cognize -- that is use information that makes > sense for > > them (has meaning first to survive in a direct individual > contact with > > the environment, then through social cognition (for > bacteria it is a > > colony which enables an individual organism to "know" about much > > bigger space and much longer time than one individual would > be able to > > -- this is based in molecular language). There are striking > > similarities in information management principles of bacterial > > colonies and our brains (which of course are much more > complex than a > > bacterial colony) but now we are talking about basic principles. > > > > // > > > > Thus Shannon information can be used to understand mechanisms of > > cognition as a process of life itself (Maturana) and meaning for an > > agent. > > > > // > > > > Loet: Thermodynamic entropy (physics) is the special case that H is > > multiplied by the Boltzmann constant and thus one obtains the > > dimensionality of S. (S = kB * H). > > > > Gordana: (Ben-Naim, 2008)argues for the revision of the above, in > > order to get it into better agreement with understanding of > entropy as > > a lack of information. > > > > http://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/6469 > > > > Loet: Information theory, however, can also be used in > other contexts > > such as economics (Theil, 1972). It does not have a realistic > > interpretation such as in your argument. > > > > Gordana: Yes, in economics one cannot talk about realism, > as it is a > > high level of organization of information. Computer > analogy: hardware > > is something where we can talk about some kind of realism > in a sense > > of instrumental interpretation of elementary interactions with the > > physical world. One can use a metaphor of virtual machine that Paul > > Smolensky (Smolensky, 1986)and Aaron Sloman (Sloman, 1996)are using. > > Virtual machine, even though it runs on a physical hardware > is virtual > > in a sense that it is representation of representation. But on the > > bottom of this hierarchy of realism there is a physical > world. And if > > anything is real in any sense then it must be this physical > layer of > > information. > > > > Loet: From such a more differentiated perspective, concepts (e.g., > > "electrons") do not "exist", but are meaningful and codified within > > theories. There can be sufficient evidence (in physical > theorizing) to > > assume (for the time being) that the external referents (electrons) > > exist. > > > > Gordana: Electrons exist in the sense of instrumentalist > epistemology. > > That is why we have a requirement for reproducibility of > experiments. > > In the following sense: > > > > /"/The world in some very real sense is a construct and creation of > > thinking beings simply because its properties are so > severely tied to > > the particular questions we ask of it./But on the other hand, the > > world is not completely unreal as a result of this; we generally > > cannot control the outcomes of our measurements."/ (Fuchs, 2011: > > p.151) > > > > Loet: The logic is not in reality, but in the argument, and > one cannot > > jump to the (ontic) conclusion of existence. > > > > Gordana: In the above sense, on the bottom, there is logic > in reality. > > Argument is that which virtual machine of our mind produces > by running > > on the physical machine of the brain. > > > > > > Hans: Gordana -- I am out of my depth in a discussion of > > phenomena/noumena/Ding-an-sich. But when I agree that the > Higgs exists > > out there in the world, I am sure it's not an object like a marble, > > but a symbol for a collection of experiences that many people have > > had, and have discussed, and codified, so that if they > perform another > > experiment where it might play a role, they can be prepared with > > betting odds for what they might experience next. > > > > Joseph (New): - - That it is a collection of experiences does not > > exclude that it is an object, or better process, of a kind > other than > > a 'marble'. As such, in discussing it, we can go beyond > binary game > > metaphors. > > > > Gordana (New): As this has important relevance for understanding of > > information as a phenomenon in the physical world (Landauer, 1996)I > > would like to return to my (epistemological) question. Regarding > > marble, Bateson reflects over Kant: > > > > "Kant argued long ago that this piece of chalk contains a million > > potential facts (Tatsachen) but that only a very few of > these become > > truly facts by affecting the behavior of entities capable of > > responding to facts. For Kant's Tatsachen, /I would substitute > > differences and point out that the number of potential > differences in > > this chalk is infinite but that very few of them become effective > > differences (i.e., items of information) in the mental > process of any > > larger entity. Information consist of differences that make a > > difference./" (Bateson, 1979: 110) (Emphasis added) > > > > Epistemologically, marble is not different from a piece of > chalk or a > > quantum mechanical object, and I like your characterization of a > > notion of Higgs boson as: > > > > /"a symbol for a collection of experiences that many people > have had, > > and have discussed, and codified, so that if they perform another > > experiment where it might play a role"/ > > > > That is epistemological instrumentalism, which from the cognitive > > point of view is a very natural position. > > > > I believe that QBism methodologically can be related to > Rössler's idea > > of observer-dependency of physics (Rössler, 1998). > > > > Also, it seems to me that epistemology of QBit can be > supported by the > > Third order cybernetics (an on-going project aiming at > understanding > > of an observer in the context of shared, inter-subjective > knowledge). > > > > There is no need to give up reality on the fundamental level of > > experimental results in physics. We cannot say that we know what an > > electron really is. History of science teaches us that we > constantly > > learn more, and understand broader context so we revise and improve > > our ideas about nature. If we accept that a /notion/ of a physical > > object is > > > > / > > / > > > > /"a symbol for a collection of experiences that many people > have had, > > and have discussed, and codified, so that if they perform another > > experiment where it might play a role"/ > > > > / > > / > > > > then what seems to me necessary is to reconstruct the > observer, from > > physics up. QBit makes a step in that direction, as far as > I can tell. > > > > With best regards, > > > > Gordana > > > > > > > > > > References: > > > > Bateson, G. (1979). /Mind and Nature: A Necessary Unity/. London: > > Wildwood House. > > > > Ben-Naim, A. (2008). /A farewell to entropy: statistical > > thermodynamics based on information/. Singapore-New > Jersey-London-Hong > > Kong: World Scientific. > > > > Fuchs, C. A. (2011). /Coming of Age With Quantum > Information: Notes on > > a Paulian Idea/. Cambridge Univ. Press. > > > > Landauer, R. (1996). The Physical Nature of Information. /Physics > > Letter A/, /217/, 188. > > > > Rössler, O. (1998). /Endophysics: the world as an interface/. > > Singapore-New Jersey-London-Hong Kong: World Scientific. > > > > Sloman, A. (1996). Beyond Turing Equivalence. In A. Clark & > P. J. R. > > Millican (Eds.), /Machines and Thought: The Legacy of Alan > Turing (vol > > I)/ (pp. 179--219). OUP (The Clarendon Press). > > > > Smolensky, P. (1986). Information processing in dynamical systems: > > Foundations of harmony theory. In D. E. Rumelhart, J. L. > McClelland, & > > PDP Research Group (Eds.), /Parallel distributed processing: > > Explorations in the microstructure of cognition/ (pp. 194--281). > > Cambridge, MA: MIT Press. > > > > > > From: Joseph Brenner <joe.bren...@bluewin.ch > > < mailto:joe.bren...@bluewin.ch>> > > Reply-To: Joseph Brenner <joe.bren...@bluewin.ch > > < mailto:joe.bren...@bluewin.ch>> > > Date: Saturday, January 11, 2014 9:16 AM > > To: Hans von Baeyer <henrikrit...@gmail.com > > < mailto:henrikrit...@gmail.com>>, fis <fis@listas.unizar.es > > < mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>> > > Subject: [Fis] Fw: Responses > > > > Gordana -- I am out of my depth in a discussion of > > phenomena/noumena/Dinge-an-sich. But when I agree that the Higgs > > exists out there in the world, I am sure it's not an object like a > > marble, but a symbol for a collection of experiences that > many people > > have had, and have discussed, and codified, so that if they perform > > another experiment where it might play a role, they can be prepared > > with betting odds for what they might experience next. > > Joseph (New) - - That it is a collection of experiences does not > > exclude that it is an object, or better process, of a kind > other than > > a 'marble'. As such, in discussing it, we can go beyond > binary game > > metaphors. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > fis mailing list > > fis@listas.unizar.es > > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > -- > Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro > Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany Capurro Fiek > Foundation for Information Ethics > ( http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org) > Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence > for Information Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information > Science, University of Pretoria, South Africa. > Distinguished Researcher in Information Ethics, School of > Information Studies, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA > President, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) > (http://icie.zkm.de) Editor in Chief, International Review of > Information Ethics (IRIE) ( http://www.i-r-i-e.net) Postal > Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany > E-Mail: raf...@capurro.de > Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21) > Homepage: www.capurro.de > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://webmail.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20140111/ 1b > 183bd0/attachment.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > fis mailing list > fis@listas.unizar.es > https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > End of fis Digest, Vol 579, Issue 18 > ************************************ > _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis Professor John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South Africa T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031 Http://web.ncf.ca/collier _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
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