Dear John,
Thank you for this interesting perspective. Regarding the origin of the
"limited band width" of physical processes, could this have its origin in
some regularity other than circularity? For example, the "continuous going
back and forth" (the phrase is Botero's) between opposing attitudes or
states, alternately predominantly actual and potential?
All natural processes, then, have a capacity for continuous information
bearing. The problem is then the origin of /discreteness/, not only in your
countercase, which involves quantum particles, but at higher levels of
interactions between complex entities! For me, the only solution is that
continuity and discontinuity are properties of information which are
not totally separate from one another.
Perhaps Sri, there may be here the physical basis for the "interplay"
between analogue and digital that you see in Bialek's book, of which I have
only read the (free) introduction?
Best,
Joseph
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Collier" <colli...@ukzn.ac.za>
To: <fis@listas.unizar.es>; "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
Dear fis members,
I don't think that granularity per se is a
necessary basis for the application of
information theory to analog channels. In some
cases it might be, and I agree that studying the
relations between analog (continuous) and digital
(discrete) processes is likely to be both
interesting and productive. However the bandwidth
of an analog channel typically can be defined
even if there is no discreteness, for example if
the information bearing process consists of waves
so that the information bearing capacity is
limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical
processes are cyclical in some way and thus have
a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a
collision between particles that carries momentum
from one to another. I can't think offhand right
now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in
such cases there is a finite amount of
information transferred. In any case, Shannon
discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking
at.
John
At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
I think I agree with Joseph Brenner here. Analogue computing is linked to
real processes, while living beings find ways of transducing information
out of dynamical states. The graininess that information theories rely on
to define measures may be directly linked to physical limits in the
information carriers (such as photons) or they might be limitations of the
processing organism, extracting the sufficient "difference that makes a
difference". And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view analogue
computing through pixellated perspectives.
I'm not sure if this is well known to members of this list, but Bill
Bialek's biophysics text is a profound reflection of the interplay between
the analogue and the digital, with selection pressure forcing the
sufficiency of the grainy "difference that makes a difference" towards a
necessity for organisms, and hence pushing sensory systems close to the
physical limits of information transfer.
Cheers,
Sri
-------- Original message --------
From: Joseph Brenner
Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)
To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan"
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
Dear Colleagues,
My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and
philosophy
of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to
contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from
some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation
has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real
processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy,
qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors
seem
almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital
computer . . .
Best wishes,
Joseph
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pridi Siregar" <pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com>
To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
Cc: <fis@listas.unizar.es>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna
> Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall
> I'm
> interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a
> brainstorming session that would include pure researchers and
> application-oriented guys like me to explore technology transfer
> opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some (possible)
> future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it more than
> worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure Plamen would be interested
> too.
>
> best!
>
> Pridi
>
>
>
> ----- Mail original -----
> De: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
> À: fis@listas.unizar.es
> Envoyé: Vendredi 11 Juillet 2014 14:41:42
> Objet: [Fis] FIS in Varna
>
> Dear FISers,
>
> The fis summer conference in Varna just took place 5-6 July --our 20
> years of activities were celebrated too, FIS 20th. Rather unfortunately
> not many people attended: half dozen from Spain related to Juan
> Castellanos and me (from Madrid and Zaragoza); and a few parties around
> Krassimir from Bulgaria and Ukraine. But we had a great time
> (discussions and exchanges, banquets, beach) and the place is really
> beautifull & prices quite affordable. The idea, quite possible to
> realize, is that every year that we do not have a plenary fis or isis
> conference, we arrange a small summer school in Varna.
>
> Among the exchanges this year, the retinue of "basic concepts" around
> information generated the most intense debate--is there any concept
> prior to information? Joseph's contribution was also discussed by
> Krassimir addressed to the Russian colleagues (in Russian). Computer
> related ontologies, new schemes to handle Big Data, and brain
> exploration through AI and EEG by a very advanced Egyptian team were
> quite exciting discussion topics too. For the future, we think that
> spinoff companies could be enticed to participate, developing new
> products and taking profit from some of those initiatives. In any case,
> the interaction with brilliant ITHEA colleagues from Bulgaria, Russia,
> Ukraine, Armenia, Belarus, Egypt... is a valuable experience itself.
>
> And that's all!
>
> best wishes---Pedro
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -------------------------------------------------
>
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Professor John Collier
colli...@ukzn.ac.za
Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South Africa
T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031
Http://web.ncf.ca/collier
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