Dear Krassimir,
Thank you for your explanation. It does give me a better understanding of how
information (beyond Shannon) can be formalized! However, a closer look at the
formalism and its semantic does raise new questions:
From the definition you have given, it appears that information cannot be
viewed in any absolute sense but as internal representations of "external
patterns" whose meaning depends on the subject capturing/interpreting/storing
the said patterns. In this framework then, it seems that "information" cannot
be conceptualized without reference to the both "something out there" and the
"internal structures" of the receptor/cognitive system.
In other words the concept of "information" lies within some "subjective"
(albeit rational) realm. I'm sure that I'm stating the obvious for most of FIS
members but a question arised upon reading your formalism: How can we really
quantify meaningful (semantic) information beyond Shannon (that disregards
semantics) and his purely statistical framework? Or beyond Boltzmann's
entropy/Information based on micro-macro states ratios?
When we formalize i = (s, r, e, I) there is a "meta-level" formalisation that
is only apparent since even (s,r) reflect our own (human) subjective
world-view. We could actually write (I1(s), I1(r), e, I2) where I1 and I2 are
two distinct cognitive systems and both of which lie at the OBJECT level of the
formalizing agent which is NEITHER I1 or I2. All "objective" measures (entropy,
negentropy,...) are actually totally dependant of I1 and I2 and can never be
considered as "absolute".
This leads me to a second question (sorry for the lengthy message): there are
some researchers that posit that "information" may be more fundamental than the
fundamental physical (mass, time, space, amps). This appears (and perhaps only
appears) to be at the opposite end of the above-mentioned view. Indeed, in this
framework some kind of "universal" or "absolute" notions must be accepted as
true.
One apparent way out would be to demonstrate that information somehow logically
entails the fundemantal physical entities while accepting that we are still
within a human-centered world view. And thus no "absolute truth" (whatever
this means) is really gained. "Only" a richer more complete (subjective but
coherent) world-view .
Am I making anys sense? Any thoughts?
Best
Pridi
----- Mail original -----
De: "Krassimir Markov" <mar...@foibg.com>
À: "Pridi Siregar" <pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com>, "FIS"
<fis@listas.unizar.es>
Envoyé: Lundi 21 Juillet 2014 11:40:23
Objet: Re to Pridi: infinite bandwith and finite information content
Dear Pridi,
An accordance with my understanding:
In physical world there exist only reflections but not information.
Information “ i " is the quadruple:
i = (s, r, e, I)
where
s is a source entity, which is reflected in r
r is the entity in which reflection of s exists
e is an evidence for the subject I which proofs for him and only for him that
the reflection in r reflects just s , i.e. the evidence proofs for the subject
what the reflection reflects .
I is information subject who has possibility to make decisions in accordance
with some goals – human, animal, bacteria, artificial intelligent system, etc.
In other words, information is a reflection, but not every reflection is
information – only reflections for which the quadruple above exist are assumed
as information by the corresponded subjects.
For different I , information may be different because of subjects’ finite
memory and reflection possibilities.
Because of this, a physical event with an infinite bandwidth may have finite
information content (for concrete information subject) .
Friendly regards
Krassimir
-----Original Message-----
From: Pridi Siregar
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:35 AM
To: Jerry LR Chandler
Cc: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information
Information Science
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
I was thinking about particles with mass...:-)
If anyone has an idea concerning my question thanks for the reply. I'm totally
ignorant concerning deep thoughts on the nature of information.
Pridi
----- Mail original -----
De: "Jerry LR Chandler" <jerry_lr_chand...@me.com>
À: "Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information
Information Science" <fis@listas.unizar.es>
Cc: "John Collier" <colli...@ukzn.ac.za>, "Pridi Siregar"
<pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com>
Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Juillet 2014 05:12:53
Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
Pridi:
Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits?
Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles.
Electrical particles in this context do what?
Cheers
Jerry
On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar wrote:
> Dear John and all,
>
> The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision) can be
> represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the
> frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event
> with an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ?
>
> Best
>
>
> Pridi
>
>
>
>
> ----- Mail original -----
> De: "John Collier" <colli...@ukzn.ac.za>
> À: fis@listas.unizar.es, "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
> Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50
> Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
>
> Dear fis members,
>
> I don't think that granularity per se is a
> necessary basis for the application of
> information theory to analog channels. In some
> cases it might be, and I agree that studying the
> relations between analog (continuous) and digital
> (discrete) processes is likely to be both
> interesting and productive. However the bandwidth
> of an analog channel typically can be defined
> even if there is no discreteness, for example if
> the information bearing process consists of waves
> so that the information bearing capacity is
> limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical
> processes are cyclical in some way and thus have
> a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a
> collision between particles that carries momentum
> from one to another. I can't think offhand right
> now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in
> such cases there is a finite amount of
> information transferred. In any case, Shannon
> discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking
> at.
>
> John
>
> At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
>> I think I agree with Joseph Brenner
>> here. Analogue computing is linked to real
>> processes, while living beings find ways of
>> transducing information out of dynamical states.
>> The graininess that information theories rely on
>> to define measures may be directly linked
>> to physical limits in the information carriers
>> (such as photons) or they might be limitations
>> of the processing organism, extracting the
>> sufficient "difference that makes a difference".
>> And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view
>> analogue computing through pixellated perspectives.
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is well known to members of
>> this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is
>> a profound reflection of the interplay between
>> the analogue and the digital, with selection
>> pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy
>> "difference that makes a difference" towards a
>> necessity for organisms, and hence pushing
>> sensory systems close to the physical limits of information transfer.
>> Cheers,
>> Sri
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Joseph Brenner
>> Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)
>> To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan"
>> Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and philosophy
>> of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to
>> contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from
>> some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation
>> has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real
>> processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy,
>> qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors seem
>> almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital
>> computer . . .
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pridi Siregar" <pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com>
>> To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
>> Cc: <fis@listas.unizar.es>
>> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna
>>
>>
>>> Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall I'm
>>> interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a
>>> brainstorming session that would include pure researchers and
>>> application-oriented guys like me to explore technology transfer
>>> opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some (possible)
>>> future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it more than
>>> worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure Plamen would be interested
>>> too.
>>>
>>> best!
>>>
>>> Pridi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Mail original -----
>>> De: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
>>> À: fis@listas.unizar.es
>>> Envoyé: Vendredi 11 Juillet 2014 14:41:42
>>> Objet: [Fis] FIS in Varna
>>>
>>> Dear FISers,
>>>
>>> The fis summer conference in Varna just took place 5-6 July --our 20
>>> years of activities were celebrated too, FIS 20th. Rather unfortunately
>>> not many people attended: half dozen from Spain related to Juan
>>> Castellanos and me (from Madrid and Zaragoza); and a few parties around
>>> Krassimir from Bulgaria and Ukraine. But we had a great time
>>> (discussions and exchanges, banquets, beach) and the place is really
>>> beautifull & prices quite affordable. The idea, quite possible to
>>> realize, is that every year that we do not have a plenary fis or isis
>>> conference, we arrange a small summer school in Varna.
>>>
>>> Among the exchanges this year, the retinue of "basic concepts" around
>>> information generated the most intense debate--is there any concept
>>> prior to information? Joseph's contribution was also discussed by
>>> Krassimir addressed to the Russian colleagues (in Russian). Computer
>>> related ontologies, new schemes to handle Big Data, and brain
>>> exploration through AI and EEG by a very advanced Egyptian team were
>>> quite exciting discussion topics too. For the future, we think that
>>> spinoff companies could be enticed to participate, developing new
>>> products and taking profit from some of those initiatives. In any case,
>>> the interaction with brilliant ITHEA colleagues from Bulgaria, Russia,
>>> Ukraine, Armenia, Belarus, Egypt... is a valuable experience itself.
>>>
>>> And that's all!
>>>
>>> best wishes---Pedro
>>>
>>> --
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
>>> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
>>> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
>>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
>>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
>>> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
>>> Fis@listas.unizar.es
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
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>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> ----------
> Professor John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za
> Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South Africa
> T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031
> Http://web.ncf.ca/collier
>
>
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