All -- There is the World, and there is Nature, our model of the world.
Nature is based in (usually one kind of) logic, even though there is scant
evidence that the world operates only or mostly logically. The evidence
that there is is found in successful applications of engineering and
technology, leaving most aspects of the world (including much of human
mentality) un-modeled. Information is a logical notion. It exists in (as I
see it) three levels in a subsumptive hierarchy -- {variety {choice
{interpretation/effect}}}. So information is part of our model of the
world. Since our species has been (almost excessively) successful, we can
be assured that the world does have logical properties, to which our
mentality has become adapted. However, aspects of the world that are (one
might say) ‘illogical’ appear to be closing in upon us. These aspects
include, I think, what Søren is trying to capture in his thinking.
STAN
On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 4:49 AM, Mark Johnson <johnsonm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Soren, Lou and Loet,
>
> I can appreciate that Bateson might have had it in for hypnotists and
> missionaries, but therapists can be really useful! Had Othello had a
> good one, Desdemona would have lived – they might have even done some
> family therapy!
>
> More deeply, Bateson’s highlighting of the difference between the way
> we think and the way nature works is important. How can a concept of
> information help us to think in tune with nature, rather than against
> it?
>
> Loet’s description of social systems as encoded systems of
> expectations within which selections are made is helpful. A concept of
> information is such a selection. But we live in a world of finite
> resources and our expectations form within what appear to be real
> limits: Othello saw only one Desdemona. Similarly, there appears to be
> scarcity of food, money, shelter, safety, education, opportunity for
> ourselves and for our children upon whose flourishing we stake our own
> happiness. These limits may be imagined or constructed, but their
> effects are real to the point that people will risk their lives
> crossing oceans, fight and kill for them. This is a result of how we
> think: it leads to hierarchy, exclusion and the production of more
> scarcity. Nature appears not to work like this.
>
> If we accept that the way we think is fundamentally different from the
> way nature works, how might a concept of information avoid
> exacerbating the pathologies of human existence? Wouldn’t it just turn
> us into information bible-bashers hawking our ideas in online forums
> (because universities are no longer interested in them!)? Would new
> metrics help? Or would that simply create new scarcity in the form of
> a technocratic elite? Or maybe we’re barking up the wrong tree. Maybe
> it’s not “information” at all (whatever that is) – or maybe it’s “not
> information”.
>
> I like “not information” as the study of the constraints within which
> our crazy thinking takes place because it continually draws us back to
> what isn't thought. Without wanting to bash any bibles, Bateson got
> this - see for example the chapter in Steps on "A Re-examination of
> Bateson's Rule". Good therapists get it too. I don't know Peirce well
> enough... Which leads me to a question: “What are the criteria for a
> good theory of information?”
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mark
>
> On 3 April 2016 at 07:50, Loet Leydesdorff <l...@leydesdorff.net> wrote:
> > Dear Soren,
> >
> >
> >
> > In my opinion, there are two issues here (again J ):
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. the issue of non-verbal (e.g., bodily) communication;
> >
> > 2. the meta-biological or transdisciplinary integration vs. the
> > differentiation among the disciplines.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ad 1. Although I don’t agree with Luhmann on many things, his insistence
> > that everything communicated among humans is culturally coded, is fully
> > acceptable to me. “Love” is not a counter-example. Unlike animals, our
> > behavior is regulated by codes of communication. Preparing "Love” as a
> > passion, Luhmann spent months in the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris
> reading
> > the emergence of romantic love in the literature of the early 18th
> century.
> > A similar intuition can be found in Giddens’ book “The Transformation of
> > Intimacy”. Of course, one sometimes needs bodily presence; Luhmann uses
> here
> > the concept of “symbiotic mechanisms”; but this is only relevant for the
> > variation. The selection mechanisms – which impulses are to be followed –
> > are cultural. Among human beings, this means: in terms of mutual and/or
> > shared expectations. The realm of expecting the other to entertain
> > expectations, shapes a “second contingency” which is otherwise absent in
> the
> > animal kingdom. (If you wish, you can consider it as a function of the
> > cortex as a symbiotic mechanism.)
> >
> >
> >
> > This special status of human society should make us resilient against
> using
> > biological metaphors. Socio-biology has a terrible history since it links
> > social processes with evolutionary ones. The rule of law, however,
> protects
> > us against “survival of the fittest” as a structure of expectations. One
> > cannot define “the fittest” without using one (coded!) vocabulary or
> > another, and these vocabularies (discourses; Foucault) can be different;
> but
> > always disciplining. The codes function as selection mechanisms different
> > from an assumed “nature”. (Inga Ivanova used the term “fractional
> > manifold”.) The selection mechanisms are also coordination mechanisms;
> their
> > differentiation enables us to process more complexity.
> >
> >
> >
> > 2. As Krippendorff once emphasized, one should be suspicious about using
> the
> > word “system” in this context because it entails a biological metaphor of
> > integration and wholeness. Because the codes tend to differentiate and
> thus
> > to generate misunderstandings (variation), the social system can process
> > complexity by an order of magnitude more than any biological system. The
> > notion of “system” tends to reify, whereas in sociological theorizing it
> is
> > important to keep a firm eye on the second contingency of interacting
> > expectations. The clarification of misunderstandings, for example,
> enables
> > us to solve problems; sometimes one may need to invent new metaphors and
> > words. From this perspective, the sciences can be considered as
> rationalized
> > systems of expectations which operate in terms of codes retained above
> the
> > individual level. (Note that this is different from belief structures –
> cf.
> > the sociology of scientific knowledge of Bloor and Barnes -- because
> beliefs
> > remain attributes to agents of communities of agents.)
> >
> >
> >
> > “Transdisciplinary integration” may be needed for one’s internal
> well-being
> > (or soul), but it can be expected to remain a local instantiation. Since
> we
> > decapitated the ointed body of the King of France, there is no center
> left
> > (Lyotard). One may feel a need for integration and community. Community
> is
> > another coded form of communication (religion?). I provocatively advised
> my
> > students to keep that celebration for the Sunday mornings. Aren’t we
> > celebrating our community today?
> >
> >
> >
> > Central to our community is the notion of “information”. A mathematical
> > theory of information (e.g., Shannon) enables us to entertain models that
> > one can use from one level to another, for testing hypothesis. These
> models
> > may come from biology (e.g. Lotka-Volterra), engineering (anticipatory
> > systems; Dubois), complex systems theory (Simon, Ashby), etc. For
> example:
> > can interactions among codes be modeled using Lotka-Volterra? (Ivanova
> > &Leydesdorff, 2014; in Scientometrics). The math is not meta, but epi
> > because the other domains can also be considered as specific domains of
> > communication. Maturana, for example, argues that a biology is generated
> > whenever molecules can be communicated (as more complex than atoms
> exchanged
> > in a chemistry).
> >
> >
> >
> > 3. Let me return to the theme of “love”: note the transition from “Love”
> as
> > Christ, and thus the only intimate relations (17th century) to love as
> > passion in interpersonal relations. Here, Husserl is relevant: the
> > intersubjective is secularized. Luhmann proposed to operationalize this
> as
> > communication. In later work (after 1990), Luhmann than moved from the
> > communication of expectations to “observations”. Observations, however,
> > serve us to update the expectations. The dynamics of expectations are the
> > proper subject of a sociology. Observations presume observing “systems”;
> but
> > it is problematic to consider evolving discourse as a “system” (see
> above).
> > The codes in the communication of expectations enable us also to be
> > surprised by observations. (In the Shannon formulas, the denominator than
> > goes to zero and the expected information value therefore to infinity.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Let me add that I don’t wish to deny the fruitfulness of the Piercean
> system
> > of analyzing signs can have fruitful applications in the information
> > sciences. However, its status is not different from a methodology or a
> > mathematical theory of communication.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Loet
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > Loet Leydesdorff
> >
> > Professor, University of Amsterdam
> > Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
> >
> > l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
> > Honorary Professor, SPRU, University of Sussex;
> >
> > Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC,
> > Beijing;
> >
> > Visiting Professor, Birkbeck, University of London;
> >
> > http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Fis mailing list
> > Fis@listas.unizar.es
> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Mark William Johnson
> Institute of Learning and Teaching
> Faculty of Health and Life Sciences
> University of Liverpool
>
> Visiting Professor
> Far Eastern Federal University, Russia
>
> Phone: 07786 064505
> Email: johnsonm...@gmail.com
> Blog: http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com
>
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>
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