Folks -- On a source of the complexity of the neural system I think it
worthwhile to dwell for a moment anyway on the phenomenon of the 'neural
crest' in the development of vertebrate embryos. Just take peak at the
beginning of Wiki's "Neural Crest".
STAN
On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 3:48 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> wrote:
> Asunto: [Fis] NEW DISCUSSION SESSION--TOPOLOGICAL BRAIN
> Fecha: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 08:46:32 +0100
> De: Karl Javorszky <karl.javors...@gmail.com> <karl.javors...@gmail.com>
> Responder a: karl.javors...@gmail.com
> Para: fis <fis@listas.unizar.es> <fis@listas.unizar.es>
> CC: Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
> <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>, tozziart...@libero.it
>
> Topology
>
> The session so far has raised the points: meta-communication,
> subject-matter, order, spaces.
>
> a.) Meta-communication
>
> Gordana’s summary explicates the need to have a system of references that
> FIS can use to discuss whatever it wishes to discuss, be it the equivalence
> between energy and information or the concept of space in the human brain.
> Whatever the personal background, interests or intellectual creations of
> the members of FIS, we each have been taught addition, multiplication,
> division and the like. We also know how to read a map and remember well
> where we had put a thing as we are going to retrieve it. When discussing
> the intricate, philosophical points which are common to all formulations of
> this session, it may be helpful to use such words and procedures that are
> well-known to each one of us, while describing what we do while we use
> topology.
>
> b.) Subject-matter
>
> Topology is managed by much older structures of the central nervous system
> than those that manage speech, counting, abstract ideas. Animals and small
> children remember their way to food and other attractions. Children
> discover and use topology far before they can count. Topology is a
> primitive ancestor to mathematics; its ideas and methods are archaic and
> may appear as lacking in refinement and intelligence.
>
> c.) Order
>
> There is no need to discuss whether Nature is well-ordered or not. Our
> brain is surely extremely well ordered, otherwise we had seizures, tics,
> disintegrative features. In discussing topology we can make use of the
> condition that everything we investigate is extremely well ordered. We may
> not be able to understand Nature, but we may get an idea about how our
> brain functions, in its capacity as an extremely well ordered system. We
> can make a half-step towards modelling artificial intelligence by
> understanding at first, how artificial instincts, and their conflicts, can
> be modelled. Animals apparently utilise a different layer of reality of the
> world while building up their orientation in it to that which humans
> perceive as important. The path of understanding how primitive instincts
> work begins with a half-step of dumbing down. It is no more interesting,
> how many they are, now we only look at where it is relative to how it
> appears, compared with the others.
>
> d.) Spaces
>
> Out of sequences, planes naturally evolve. Whether out of the planes
> spaces can be constructed, depends on the kinds of planes and of common
> axes. Now the natural numbers come in handy, as we can demonstrate to each
> other on natural numbers, how in a well-ordered collection the actual
> mechanism of place changes creates by itself two rectangular, Euclidean,
> spaces. These can be merged into one common space, but in that, there are
> four variants of every certainty coming from the position within the
> sequence. Furthermore, all these spaces are transcended by two planes. The
> discussion about an oriented entity in a space of n dimensions can be given
> a frame, placed into a context that is neutral and shared as a common
> knowledge by all members of FIS.
>
> 2016. nov. 29. 15:15 ezt írta ("Karl Javorszky" <karl.javors...@gmail.com
> >):
>
>> Topology
>>
>> The session so far has raised the points: meta-communication,
>> subject-matter, order, spaces.
>>
>> a.) Meta-communication
>>
>> Gordana’s summary explicates the need to have a system of references that
>> FIS can use to discuss whatever it wishes to discuss, be it the equivalence
>> between energy and information or the concept of space in the human brain.
>> Whatever the personal background, interests or intellectual creations of
>> the members of FIS, we each have been taught addition, multiplication,
>> division and the like. We also know how to read a map and remember well
>> where we had put a thing as we are going to retrieve it. When discussing
>> the intricate, philosophical points which are common to all formulations of
>> this session, it may be helpful to use such words and procedures that are
>> well-known to each one of us, while describing what we do while we use
>> topology.
>>
>> b.) Subject-matter
>>
>> Topology is managed by much older structures of the central nervous
>> system than those that manage speech, counting, abstract ideas. Animals and
>> small children remember their way to food and other attractions. Children
>> discover and use topology far before they can count. Topology is a
>> primitive ancestor to mathematics; its ideas and methods are archaic and
>> may appear as lacking in refinement and intelligence.
>>
>> c.) Order
>>
>> There is no need to discuss whether Nature is well-ordered or not. Our
>> brain is surely extremely well ordered, otherwise we had seizures, tics,
>> disintegrative features. In discussing topology we can make use of the
>> condition that everything we investigate is extremely well ordered. We may
>> not be able to understand Nature, but we may get an idea about how our
>> brain functions, in its capacity as an extremely well ordered system. We
>> can make a half-step towards modelling artificial intelligence by
>> understanding at first, how artificial instincts, and their conflicts, can
>> be modelled. Animals apparently utilise a different layer of reality of the
>> world while building up their orientation in it to that which humans
>> perceive as important. The path of understanding how primitive instincts
>> work begins with a half-step of dumbing down. It is no more interesting,
>> how many they are, now we only look at where it is relative to how it
>> appears, compared with the others.
>>
>> d.) Spaces
>>
>> Out of sequences, planes naturally evolve. Whether out of the planes
>> spaces can be constructed, depends on the kinds of planes and of common
>> axes. Now the natural numbers come in handy, as we can demonstrate to each
>> other on natural numbers, how in a well-ordered collection the actual
>> mechanism of place changes creates by itself two rectangular, Euclidean,
>> spaces. These can be merged into one common space, but in that, there are
>> four variants of every certainty coming from the position within the
>> sequence. Furthermore, all these spaces are transcended by two planes. The
>> discussion about an oriented entity in a space of n dimensions can be given
>> a frame, placed into a context that is neutral and shared as a common
>> knowledge by all members of FIS.
>>
>> 2016. nov. 25. 14:44 ezt írta ( <tozziart...@libero.it>):
>>
>>> Dear Joseph,
>>> The Borsuk-Ulam theorem looks like a translucent glass sphere between a
>>> light source and our eyes: we watch two lights on the sphere surface
>>> instead of one. But the two lights are not just images, they are also real
>>> with observable properties, such as intensity and diameter.
>>> Until the sphere lies between your eyes and the light source, the lights
>>> you can see are two (and it is valid also for every objective observer),
>>> it's not just a trick of your imagination or a Kantian a priori.
>>> Therefore, the link between topology and energy/information is very
>>> strong. If we just think the facts and the events of the world in terms of
>>> projections, we are able to quantitatively elucidate puzzling and
>>> counterintuitive phenomena, such as, for example, quantum entanglement
>>> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10773-016-2998-7
>>>
>>> Therefore, the 'eternal' discussion of whether geometry or energy
>>> (call it dynamics, informational entropy, or whatsoever) is more
>>> fundamental in the universe, does not stand anymore: both geometry and
>>> energy describe the same phenomena, although with different languages. In
>>> physical terms, we could say that geometry and energy are 'dual' theories,
>>> e.g., they are interchangeable in the description of real facts and
>>> events.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Inviato da Libero Mail per Android
>>> venerdì, 25 novembre 2016, 00:28PM +01:00 da Joseph Brenner
>>> joe.bren...@bluewin.ch:
>>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> Pedro should be thanked already for this new Session, even as we welcome
>>> Andrew and Alexander. The depth of your work facilitates rigorous
>>> discussion of serious philosophical as well as scientific issues.
>>>
>>> In Pedro's note of 2016.11.24 there is the following:
>>>
>>> "Somehow, the projection of brain "metastable dynamics" (Fingelkurts)
>>> to higher dimensionalities could provide new integrative possibilities for
>>> information processing. And that marriage between topology and dynamics
>>> would also pave the way to new evolutionary discussions on the emergence of
>>> the "imagined present" of our minds."
>>>
>>> What Pedro calls here "the marriage between topology and dynamics"
>>> reminds one of the 'eternal' discussion of whether geometry or energy
>>> (dynamics) is more fundamental in the universe. I just suggest that there
>>> are alternative terms to focus on and describe the interaction between
>>> topology and dynamics that are more - dynamic, and make an emergence a more
>>> logical consequence of that interaction.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Joseph
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>>>
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>>>
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