This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BRIAN C JACOBSEN) (by way of Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>)
I am resending this old message from Brian since I have had several requests for it. Here is the Quest info from April of 98.
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BRIAN C JACOBSEN) I apologize for being slow to write back with what I was going to say about Quest (tm). To my knowledge, Quest has not yet been known to hurt a horse when it was used properly. When used improperly, though, it seems to be less forgiving than some of the other pastewormers we're used to. The sales rep for the company that makes Quest told me about a pony here in North Carolina that had actually died shortly after being dewormed with it. However, he claimed that the pony had been extremely overdosed. It seems the owner was accustomed to giving her 250 pound pony a whole tube of pastewormer and had never had trouble with the other brands. When she did it with Quest, though, within a few hours the pony started displaying neurological signs which progressed to seizures and then death. Even though I'm embarrassed to relate it, I personally saw the effects of Quest dosed improperly also. I dewormed some of the horses with Quest one day, and since I was short on time, was going to give it to the rest when I had more time. Two weeks later I did deworm the rest, but mistakenly also repeated it with one horse that had gotten it two weeks earlier. The proper dose was used each time, but obviously you're not supposed to use it again that soon. Three days later my horse was showing signs of abdominal discomfort (colic). To make a long story short, he recovered quickly and uneventfully with several days worth of a Pepto Bismol type medication for stomach irritation. Whereas a double dose of the other common pastewormers would have caused no untoward side effects, especially two weeks apart, it seems that Quest can cause problems. I do take full responsibility though, for (unintentionally) using it wrong. On the positive side, one of my year-and-a-half old geldings had a bit of a pot belly that frequent deworming (tube and paste) and what should have been proper nutrition had not improved. Within three weeks after using the Quest, there was a noticeable improvement with a trimmer, more appealing abdominal shape. To summarize, I and the veterinarians I work for and with feel that Quest should be a good dewormer to use in a rotation with several others of the good ones we already have. IMPORTANT POINT - rotation. Neither the Ivermectins (Zimectrin (tm), Equimectrin (tm), Eqvalan (tm), Rotectin 1 (tm)) nor Moxidectin (Quest (tm)) are very effective against tapeworms. Although in general tapeworms are one of the species we see the least problems with, exclusive use of the dewormers listed above can result in a buildup of tapeworms resulting in impaction colic. As an example of this, in veterinary school I saw a horse that had to be euthanized due to an impaction of unknown cause that was not responding to medical treatment (surgery was not an option financially for the owners). The autopsy revealed many tapeworms packed together and blocking the intestines. Since then I have seen 2 or 3 more that luckily did respond to medical treatment, and, subsequent to treatment for tapeworms (the fecal exam revealed that's what the problem was), have not had a reoccurance. Someone paricipating in the Fjordhorse Digest wrote (maybe a week ago?) that they used Zimectrin exclusively every two months; I hope they see this to know that can cause problems. Now, to answer some good questions: Dave McWethy wrote: I had a fecal test done for a couple of my mares this fall, and the result was "negative". I questioned that, wanting some more detail, and they said, "Negative, we didn't see anything." What am I to make of that? Should we have looked at another sample? A negative result means (1) your horses do not have any worms (possible but doubtful - that's almost impossible to achieve), (2) there were no worms in your horses that were laying eggs at that time (not mature yet, "encysted", or migrating), (3) eggs were being laid, but since only about 1/2 teaspoon of stool is used in the test, none were in the test samples, and (4) the veterinarian/technician missed seeing eggs that really were there in the fecal samples. Since numbers 1 and 4 are unlikely, the most likely answer is number 2 or 3, most likely #2. Dave also asked: So what do you do, Brian, for worming of your horses? I try to keep the number of horses per pasture to a minimum, harrow the pastures in hot, dry weather only (worms thrive in wet, and don't mind cold - if you harrow in these conditions you will help the worms by spreading them out but not killing them), and deworm (tube and paste) each 8 weeks with Pyrantel Pamoate products (Strongid (tm), Rotectin 2 (tm)) and Ivermectin products (Zimectrin (tm), Equimectrin (tm), Eqvalan (tm), Rotectin 1 (tm)), and each 12 weeks with Moxidectin (Quest (tm) on a rotating schedule. Hmmm.....that sounds about as clear as mud. : ) Anotherwards, I go Pyrantel Pamoate, Ivermectin, Moxidectin, although not always in that exact order and I don't think it's any big deal if you use one back to back once in a while. Although you will get different opinions on rotating like this from different veterinarians, the theory is that if some worms survive treatment with one type, probably the next one you use will kill them and so no resistance will build up. To date, that I know of, no resistance has been documented to the Ivermectins or Moxidectins, and just a little has been found with the Pyrantels. Ingrid Ivic wrote that she has a horse that nothing but Strongid-C (tm) helped keep weight on. Also, Bill Coli asked about resistance to daily dewormers. Here are some thoughts on both of those subjects: Before last week, I had never had a client who was not pleased with what Strongid-C did for their horses. Without fail owners mention one or more of the following: shinier coat (even in horses they thought looked fine beforehand), weight gain or easier time keeping weight on, being able to cut down on the feed a little and maintain same condition (mechanism unknown, but consistently reported), and reduced incidence of colic. Then last week a client told me he was going to stop using it because he had had his horses on it for three months and had not seen any difference. He was not saying it wasn't working, just that he hadn't seen an improvement. Every time I am out to see his horses they look fine, so he's doing a good job whether using Strongid-C or something else. Bill had a very good comment/question about whether resistance to a daily dewormer was a problem in horses. Even though the company that makes Strongid would have a dying-duck fit if they heard me say it, there have been a few reports of slight resistance to Strongid-C daily dewormer. The incidence seems to be about the same as for Strongid paste. If someone is paste deworming in addition twice yearly with an Ivermectin as is recommended when using Strongid-C, and doing regular fecal exams to catch any emerging resistance, there should be no problem. However, as Bill could probably tell you, a small amount of dewormer, no matter which kind you are using, comes out in the stool, and has effects on the worm and insect life on the pasture. Potentially the worms could be exposed to a sub-lethal dose of dewormer, develop resistance to it, and pass that on to further generations. Whether or not this is having any effects regarding the worms that affect horses has not yet been determined. Finally, remember that just because a horse doesn't look "wormy", doesn't mean there aren't worms in there causing damage. It's not so much that the worms sit in there competing with your horse for the food it eats; It's more that they migrate around and cause damage to sensitive tissue and blood supply. Other strategies to reduce worm burdens: ---Chickens, ducks, and geese, when rooting through manure for leftover grain, do an amazing job of spreading the manure out so it will dry and kill the worm eggs and larvae. If you have large pastures, consider a moveable chicken coop and periodically take it to different parts of the pasture. ---Ruminant animals (cows, goats, sheep, llamas, etc.) are largely unaffected by the worms that bother horses, yet as they graze they still ingest them. As these larvae do not survive in ruminants' system, many worm eggs are removed from the pasture. Also, the ruminant worms do not bother horses, so it helps the ruminants too. Another advantage of ruminants on the pasture is that they will eat grass in the horses' bathroom areas. This keeps the grass from getting so long and thus dries things out, killing worm eggs. (Helps reduce weeds too!). ---Have any new horse dewormed a week before coming to your farm. ---Rake up manure, compost it which kills worm eggs and larvae, and spread it back on your pasture for excellent fertilizer and source of humus which greatly enriches the soil. ---Turn your pasture into a hay field for 2-3 years, then pasture it again. ---In cold climates, deworm more frequently in the late spring, summer, and early fall. In the cold, snowy, frozen winter, worm eggs aren't as prevalent. ---In hot climates it's reversed. Deworm less in the hot, dry weather, which kills worm eggs, and more in the fall, winter, and spring when wet weather conditions are favorable to worm development. I bet some others have more good suggestions too??? Hope this all has helped. Any other thoughts? Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
