This message is from: "Werner, Kristine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Oh boy - I`m afraid I can`t keep my mouth shut on this one. Although I should: I do not breed and I am not a horse expert. Scant as it might be, I have however had some exposure to horses and at least as such experience with the breed. Therefore, I am going to add my two cents worth, for whatever it is worth, to this discussion. I must say that I agree with Ursula here. I cannot recall exactly what she said, but juxtaposed with carole's statement, I can just about guess. The purchase of my pony, Kai, turned out to be a lengthy procedure. We wound up visiting many different of this country`s breeders. But I bought Kai from E.. Why ? Because he has THE most impressive set of horses that I have EVER seen with a lifetime and lifestyle of professional horsemanship to back it up. He is allegedly much disliked for that - obviously he is doing something right. Unlike other breeders who make up for a COMPLETE lack of discipline in their biting, kicking and just plain mean old stallions by seeing to it that they all look extremely good from the outside, E. takes care of his horses by seeing to it that they are physically AND mentally prepared to be sold and make good, realiable horses that their new owners can work and have fun with. The old adage - content determines form is certainly appropriate here - you can`t wholly have the one, without the other. Kais breeder, E., handles his horses in such a way that ALL of them are well behaved. I repeat ALL. If I presented E. with some of the arguments presented here about "testosterone" levels and the necessity of stallions to act up when all that is required of them is to STAND STILL - he would undoubtedly laugh in your face. I hate to be harsh here - but if you saw his horses - from foal to stud and every mare and gelding inbetween, you would have to (perhaps even hate to) agree with me and anyone else who has seen his herd. I myself was amazed when he invited us to approach the broodmares and his favorite reserve-winning stallion, Kvest. They were absolutely calm - no biting, no fussing, no jerking no nothing. He said "pet him" - we did - Kvest simply came closer - it was an awesome thing, believe me. "Man, he is so reserved and self-contained - he doesn`t try to bite or anything" I breathed. E. replied "why should he ?". And this is precisely the point. Why should he ? It is all a matter of upbringing. If you say - my horse is not virile unless he is wild, frisky and otherwise out of control, I would ask - what is the point of "virility" if the horse is unmanageable ? Can he not be just as virile while displaying utmost self-control ? This is true and awesome beauty. Think about it. As a corallary to Kvest`s fanatastic self-control, he can be ridden by anyone. Just last May Kvest competed in the first of the bi-annual Fjord Cup series. The rider of the 9 year old stud, Kvest, was 9 year old Per, E.`s son, who won second place in two catagories out of three - including a round of caprilli jumping and dressage riding. I couldn`t help but take note of the fact that Per competed against exellent riders - several twice his age and with much more experience. Two of these girls performed on the generally badly-behaved stallions mentioned above. Neither of them placed - because those studs - although good-looking - were not "typey fjords" but just plain out of control. (Neither one of them could stand still, either). They were judged fairly - that is, accordingly. E.'s "second" son, a seven year old, rides Magnus - a 6 year old stallion imported earlier this year from Norway. I have ridden with them all - through forest terrain and water - at a walk, trot and canter. These stallions were manageable to a "T" - and easily "stopped" and "started". In other words, these animals, in spite of or because of their breeding ability, are treated in every other way like "normal" horses - which they are - and not spoiled because they are stallions and have to look good. Looking good is often a matter of self-compure and grace. Off the wall horses are definitely NOT pretty, but a disgrace to the breed - especially when compared with the above mentioned. > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur and Carol Rivoire [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Donnerstag, 20. August 1998 20:08 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: fjordhorse-digest V98 #147 > > This message is from: Arthur and Carol Rivoire > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Hi Everybody, > > This message is from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia. > > Ursula's comments about evaluating a stallion's temperament at the > Evaluations, and her suggestion that we launch a discussion on the > subject > is important. This is a real good place to air ideas. > > A couple of things she mentioned particularly struck me. She felt > that the > bad acting stallion shouldn't have gotten a blue ribbon. I guess that > depends what the blue ribbon signifies. If it signifies that he's a > typey, > well made animal that meets or exceeds the standards, then he should > have > the blue, and apparently that was the mandate the judges were judging > under, so what else can they do. -- It certainly would be very hard > (impossible, I'd say) to judge temperament in a ring situation. I > mean, > how many stallion owners can simulate that kind of situation where the > stallion is presented in an enclosure with five, ten, or more other > breeding stallions. Isn't it natural for a virile stallion to act up? > The > great ones I've seen in Norway and Holland very often do. I would > think > that if we want to judge temperament, we would require the stallion to > perform in some capacity - jumping, dressage, driving, pulling, > whatever he > does. That situation is much easier for the owner to control as they > can > take their stallion to shows and at least get them used to being > around, > and performing with other horses, so the Evaluation ring wouldn't be > all > that strange, although the stallions would still have to contend with > the > other stallions. > > The point I'm trying to make is that it's unfair to judge a > stallion's > character on the basis of an in-hand stallion evaluation. Are we going > to > reward the quiet ones? Maybe the quieter the better? Is this a good > idea? > I don't think so. The quieter the stallion is could indicate his > testosterone level. Think about it. > > I do speak from experience on this subject. Our stallion, Gjest, came > to > us as a ten year old experienced breeding stallion. He'd been a > government > stallion in Holland for many years. He was used to spending his time > going > from farm to farm breeding mares - 85 + mares per season. What do you > think he was like when we took him to a show? Gjest descending from > the > trailer was a dramatic scene? It was awesome, and somewhat scary. > Yet, > that same super virile breeding stallion was soon hitched to his cart > doing > a cones course, or a dressage test, or a marathon. He was, and is at > age > 21, a phenomenal performance horse. --- He was, and is at age 21, > still > VERY IMPRESSIVE during breeding season. From late March until late > June, > Gjest remains a handfull when being led from his paddock to the barn. > Yet, > once in the barn and turned around for the cross-ties, he realizes the > situation, and changes into his "good old gelding" role. You couldn't > ask > for a better horse. > > Gjest is ridden all summer by children. He goes on trailrides with > mares. > He's used in our Beginner Driving Program. He's a darn wonderful > horse. > And yet, people used to say that he was too hot blooded. They didn't > want > to breed to him for fear of getting a "too lively foal." etc., etc. > We > heard it all much to our dismay. > > Today, Gjest's North American offspring are old enough to be proving > themselves in performance. All of them are doing extremely well in > dressage, fox hunting, driving, combined driving. They're all good > workers > just as Gjest has always been a good worker. Not one of Gjest's > offspring > has ever (as far as I know) been a behavioral problem. > > Back around 1985, we took Gjest to the Woodstock Fjord Show, and > showed him > in the stallion class. ---- He was plain awful! Really badly > behaved, > although handled by a large girl with lots of experience. We didn't > win > any points that year with onlookers. It was probably a bad move to > have > taken him, from a promotional point of view. I'm sure we lost > breedings > because of the aforementioned fears of mare owners. That was too bad > for > us, and also for the people who lost out on getting a good foal. > > I don't know. This is such a very important subject. I guess what > I'm > trying to say is we shouldn't come down hard on a stallion for doing > what > is natural. If the stallion has such a bad temper he is untrainable, > that's a whole different story. However, judging his temperament and > charater by what he does in a ring full of other breeding stallions is > foolish, and could result in damaging the breed. I think you'll get > people > with good stallions staying away from evaluations. --- Not good for > the > breed. --- I'll tell you what I'd hate to see is the rewarding of > characterless Fjords. Those horses that are so quiet they have no > character. Read the Norwegian standards. Read the Dutch standards. > Read > them in my book, THE FJORDHORSE HANDBOOK. The Europeans who know a > lot > more about the breed than we do, don't want wimpy Fjordhorses. > > It's a very difficult call for the judges. -- I really don't think > that a > judgement on a stallion's temperament made on the basis of his > performance > in a ring full of other stallions has much validity. How can you > judge > such a thing? Don't we want "Stallion Presence" in the Fjordhorse? > If we > don't then we're sure a long way from the European standards. > Requiring > a specific performance test would go much further towards showing the > true > character of the stallion. What does everybody else think? Regards > from > Carol at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia
