This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- I think our lists and magazine are completely appropriate places for "this sort of thing". -- My interpretation of the discussion on horses not wanting to please people was more from a natural animal behavior. With some animals, primates or dogs for example, you will see them actively submitting or seeking to appease or please other members of the pack or tribe. That is NOT typical behavior in horses - horses interact with each other by applying pressure until the object submits or returns the challenge. I don't think the author's point was that we can't raise, teach or influence our horses to where they want to please us, and he does reference clicker training as an example. It's that negative reinforcement is a highly effective, productive, and "natural" way to work with herd animals. Your horse does not respond to the whip because they want to please you - they respond because they want to avoid the whip. Your horse does not innately turn to the right to please you - they turn to avoid the pressure from the bit or halter. It works pretty well, but most people don't like to think of it as negative reinforcement. -- On some of the few occasions where I have been driving with highly experienced drivers, they could have - for all practical purposes - been driving bitless. The lines, the bridle, the bit were there solely as back-up. The actual drive was almost entirely voice managed. We've talked before about the fact that there is no bit/bridle/rein/line combination in the world that can stop a horse who is determined to go, so to some extent every time we get on or behind a horse we are taking a significant chance and risk. I don't have a problem with people who are confident enough to take bigger chances than me. -- I can't abide the Parelli machine, but I respect the philosophy and approach to working with horses. And maybe one day I'll have a partnership with my horse where I am comfortable riding out without a bridle. But I'm okay with the fact that for now, if I want to ride, it's going to take some "back-up" to help me be confident enough (a saddle, a bridle, a bit, and a helmet!!). Kate **************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 02:14:01 EDT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: The fjord Herald This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I received the Herald today and read through some very nice articles and well written passages and beautiful pictures, however when I came to one article in particular Training a bit less, voice only fjord. I have to say that It gave me very uncomfortable feeling in many comments such as horses not wanting to please humans (which I have found to be just the opposite especially with the Fjords) and if this method were tried by many of the people that I have seen, well I think that I would stay off the road and under safe cover. Using force and discomfort as a primary training method is only saying to me that we as humans have not evolved very far. As stated in this article the author only has experience with negative re-enforcement. Well I must say that a good boy or girl and a lot of good pats a Fjord will do anything for you, even leave their beloved food pile to perform. So I am rather disappointed with this article. I do not feel it is sound and safe as method that should be advocated in a breed magazine.. I am interested in how everyone else felt and is this really an appropriate place for this sort of thing? Bonnie Morris **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
