Scott, Reckon your point. OS is not magic, and is usually far from optimal. No one will invest serious time if it is competing with the job that pays their bills. But in some cases it can make a difference... I believe that in this particular case the success probability is higher that average. Let me develop on this. Just some brainstorming...
Let's analyze Flex from a broad perspective, the general problem domains would be: - Foundation classes ( logging, unit testing and other services ) - Component framework --- Data management ( dataprovider or similar ) --- Events --- Skinning --- Layout - Data Binding framework - Declarative programming interpreter/compiler - Remoting Services / security, server side proxy, etc Now, the good news is that the component framework is so big in terms of relative effort that from the moment an opensource component framework emerges, the rest of the problems can organize themselves and evolve around it. Of course it would be a gigantic task to address from scratch, but in reality we have frameworks to copycat... Swing, cocoa, and even mx. This existing pieces of eingeneering provide concepts, idiom, practices and documentation that can be reused. Foundation classes already exist in many libraries ( I would settle for as2lib, and investigate on using AOP in the component framework. Ain't that fancy ) Declarative and data binding frameworks are not much of a technical problem, but a conceptual one. And, guess what, they are already solved in flex. Legalities aside, a lot can be learned from the way flex generates code. Of course all this would not lead to a consistent solution like flex... where every problem domain was tackled by a collaborative team. Some work would have to be made to refactor each piece into a coherent solution. But if they are all based on the original foundation classes and component framework, they might share a common allignment from the very start. Moreover, I believe there is a large probability that systematic effort might be invested by some developers. Remember that the flash community is quite unique in terms of the amount of "I'm making money from my hobby" people looking for an opportunity ( versus Microsoft / J2EE ). I'm talking of people that have also acquired significant knowledge of OO concepts Someone might see a chance here, and settle for paypal and the like. And last but not least. Maelstrom and the whole bitmap abstraction layer can, prehaps, allow for some simplification and optimization on the way components are drawn... highlights and such. The v2 framework could be simplified a little with the new functionality ( and there are other quirks that I don't personally like that could also be overhauled ). Going home now, nice discusison guys. See you soon. Best, Aldo PD: I believe Laszlo should just remake itself. I don't really think it will ever be rendered in anything but Flash (what's the point!!?), so they should settle for as2 (or wait for as3 and E4X ). I personally think it is waaaay inferior to Flex, and to any other initiative that could be started from zero. On 8/1/05, JesterXL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Amen. If Laszlo utilized MTASC instead of JGenerator, replaced JavaScript > with AS2, then maybe it wouldn't suck. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 5:40 PM > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Hope all is watching the Avalon space.. > > > Great read aldo, weighed up some nice arguments. > > My only thoughts are - aren't you putting a little too much faith in > Open Source champions? ie i've seen quite a few wave the "open source > banner" which is fine, but initially after the hype has gone and the > champions have moved onto other projects or got bored with the > existing, then it kind of falls ot the side a bit. > > There are a lot of OS solutions that have taken off, don't get me > wrong but the thing that makes me sceptic of OS is there is no > motivation other then ownership/creativity. At least if its commercial > and makes money, the momentum keeps being pushed so that they grow > financially. > > OSFLASH isn't a saviour, while I understand admire what they have been > doing with the movement of it, it still brings nothing "new" > techically to the table. There have been component architects that > have tried and someone what failed, either due to complexity or not > enough interest. > > Lazlo is open source, by rights its only realistic limiation on > pontential is the player - yet that can be overcome if the right > people are behind it. > > AJAX is now staring everyone in the face and "woooing" web-based folks > into this hole world of "we can still save our html/js skills" yet no1 > has bothered to sit down and actually write a decent framework behind > it (exception bindows.net) > > My point is, the technology has been staring us all in the face for > years and openly, yet there has been no momentum in terms of getting > folks to drive it. > > Opensource needs community to drive it,until that happens its simply a > nice "cool" project. > > > > On 8/2/05, Aldo Bucchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Great Rick, > > . > > You even corrected the typo!... now that's called synchrony. Glad to > > see SAP is on this track, I will bet hard on you guys. > > > > I agree I was a little too hard on Flex, I was just trying to cut the > > I-love-flex bias from the conversation... After all, this is > > flexcoders ;) > > > > And for the server side of Flex... watch out for Spark (which could > > sometime provide robust connectivity services) and some yet-to-come > > opensource xml compiler ( which could even be a client side > > interpreter, with some limitations, but still). > > > > BTW, I had built a client side XML interpreter + databinding framework > > some years ago. It has some limitations though... sure the Flex team > > stumbled upon them already, and went for the server side compiler. > > Anyway, I already have some ideas to work around some of them. > > > > Bottomline, I can tell you from experience that the only really scary > > part in rebuilding flex is the component architecture, and getting it > > right... BUT, if Grant Skinner could make his own framework, then an > > OSFlex is, well, probable. > > > > Best Regards, > > Aldo > > > > > > On 8/1/05, Rick Bullotta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Aldo! > > > > > > > > > > > > I would certainly view Flex as more than a "browser built in Flash" – it > > > is > > > server-side generated Flash. Quite a different architecture, of course > > > Also, I wouldn't say that Flex deals with "enterprise development > > > workflow", > > > per se. Just a piece of the puzzle. > > > > > > > > > > > > While Flash is the important piece, Flash player makes MM very little > > > direct > > > money. Don't discount Flex and its future companions (app builders, > > > other > > > back end information delivery products, etc.) as insignificant. They > > > are > > > very significant! > > > > > > > > > > > > Having just been acquired by SAP, I'm currently involved in > > > conceptualizing > > > solutions for the manufacturing vertical to deliver on exactly what you > > > described below: > > > > > > > > > > > > <<Perhaps an integrated presentation ( flex ) + presence + BPM + ESB + > > > collab + management...?>> > > > > > > > > > > > > I totally share that vision and think we're getting really close…stay > > > tuned! > > > Try to make it to SAP TechEd this year in Vienna or Boston… > > > > > > > > > > > > - Rick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > Behalf Of Aldo Bucchi > > > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 3:59 PM > > > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Hope all is watching the Avalon space.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > > > > I believe you are missing the macro perspective here. > > > > > > Don't give Flex that much importance in the long term. > > > After all it is just a browser built into Flash, with a set of tools > > > to allow an enterprise development workflow. > > > It won't be long till an opensource alternative pops up... it's just a > > > matter of time till the osflash community develops the pieces and > > > someone puts them together. No rocket science. > > > > > > Moreover, anyone with enough money to get Flex is, most of the times, > > > developing for an intranet where there is full control over the client > > > runtime and they would happily switch to a less expensive alternative, > > > or to one that fits nicer into the workflow, even if they have to give > > > up some eye candy or functionality. Eventually Avalon and other techs > > > will be better practical alternatives for an important majority. > > > > > > The important piece here is the Flash player and it's impressive > > > features, all bundled into one tiny download: > > > > > > - ubiquity ( 9_% ) > > > - consistency across platforms ( including mobile ) > > > - rich scripting language ( AS2 + E4X = reuse, best practices, > > > productivity++ ) > > > - multimedia > > > - streaming, web presence ( flash comm ) > > > > > > I believe it is the sum of these that will be hard to beat... this is > > > MM's strong card. > > > > > > Don't take me wrong, I believe Flex is a wonderful tech, and I enjoy > > > developing with it and having my customers praise me for free... a > > > paradigm shifter. But let's not loose objectivity. > > > > > > It's like talking about Swing, when the important piece is the JVM. > > > > > > So, Flex is happening today... helping Flash gain some respect in the > > > enterprise arena ( and MM make tons of money ), but old good Flash > > > will eventually live on, on it's own, and will evolve as requirements > > > grow. Unless MM pulls some licence trickery that changes the landscape > > > in the short term, of course. Who knows. > > > > > > OTOH, I believe MM has done marvels with in making Flex hard to beat, > > > and I hope some more power come out of merging flex with the rest of > > > the family. > > > Perhaps an integrated presentation ( flex ) + presence + BMP + ESB + > > > collab + management...? > > > > > > The flash player can get that far, no doubt about it. > > > > > > BTW, I was attending a Best of SAP world tour conference the other > > > day, going over some new netweaver features, and I thought... > > > What if these guys had built all the presentation capabilities of > > > netweaver with flash from the beginning! They would have the ultimate > > > platform from head to toes, from desktop to mobile, with very little > > > tradeoffs. > > > The important thing to understand here is that the SOA trend is > > > quickly pushing more and more functonality to layers that are strongly > > > related to presentation: collab, presence, information pushing, drag > > > and relate, high level BUS entry points, etc. > > > Thus a robust solution on this end would enhance any platform > > > dramatically ( this wasn't true some time ago ). > > > Online presence, streaming and collab are just too real and too > > > powerful to overlook nowadays. > > > > > > The same goes for Bea, oracle, etc. > > > > > > Team up, Macromedia! > > > > > > well, that was a getting too OT. > > > Back to work. > > > > > > Best, > > > Aldo > > > > > > On 8/1/05, Darron J. Schall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Rick Bullotta wrote: > > > > > > > > >I also wouldn't be at all surprised to see a Flex client based on > > > the > > > Java plug-in someday. When looking at the Flex class models, it has a > > > lot > > > of similarities to Java rich client stuff - so who knows - maybe the > > > Flash > > > viewer someday becomes classes deployed on a JVM! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd actually be *very* surprised to see this. There was a Flash > > > Player > > > > written in Java a long time ago that supported swf version 2. It was > > > > horrendously slow, and therefore abandoned. Granted Java has made > > > some > > > > performance improvements since then, but how does moving from the > > > Flash > > > > Player to the JVM help at all? > > > > > > > > Flash is already available on a ton of devices, and Java's "write > > > once > > > > run anywhere" mantra didn't pan out as much as Sun wanted it to > > > > especially in the mobile space. Flash is more portable in it's > > > current > > > > codebase then it would be as a Java application, and it also runs > > > faster > > > > as native code anyway. I don't see any reason why MM would want to > > > > invest the time in a Flash Player that runs on top of the JVM since > > > it > > > > doesn't buy them performance or portability, but rather just a new > > > > series of headaches. > > > > > > > > -d > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Flexcoders Mailing List > > > > FAQ: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > > > Search Archives: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ::::: Aldo Bucchi ::::: > > > mobile (56) 8 429 8300 > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Flexcoders Mailing List > > > FAQ: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > > Search Archives: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "flexcoders" on the web. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ::::: Aldo Bucchi ::::: > > mobile (56) 8 429 8300 > > > > > > > > -- > > Flexcoders Mailing List > > FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > Scott Barnes > http://www.mossyblog.com > > > > -- > Flexcoders Mailing List > FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > -- > Flexcoders Mailing List > FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- ::::: Aldo Bucchi ::::: mobile (56) 8 429 8300 ------------------------ Yahoo! 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