Good points and thanks for the insight (coming from a newer developer). And hey now, you can't plug "we have openings" and give no links, info, or email address :) _________________________________________ Jonathan Miranda Flexible Master of the Web "In the game of chess, it's important to never let your opponent see your pieces." HealthGrades: Guiding America to Better Healthcare(tm) NASDAQ: HGRD w (720) 963-3832 c (707) 761-0868 [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________
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If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. -----Original Message----- From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Berkovitz Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:21 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: RIA Certified Developer/Architect I am sure that there are many viewpoints on this subject, and I won't presume to have the "right" one. However, I have been in the business for over 20 years, so I can at least claim to have seen a lot, even if I'm wrong in my conclusions :) I have a couple of things to share -- both my own orientation as someone who wants to hire good people (<plug>we have openings</plug>), and my impression of general hiring practice in the US software engineering business. As far as my own hiring goes, knowledge of a specific technology ranks somewhere near the bottom of my list. That doesn't make it unimportant -- learning new stuff takes valuable time -- but the ability to learn is more significant to me, and the ability to think about problems abstractly (not only in terms of technology XYZ's approach) is more significant to me. So is the ability to have fun, and the ability to communicate :). I build products, so I am generally not looking for a contractor to come in and fix a problem, but for a long-term hire. Technology changes very rapidly, and passing a certification exam today doesn't mean a candidate can adapt to shifting circumstances. Out there in the bigger world, what I see is that certification counts the most in: - jobs with high turnover (e.g. system administration) - jobs with inherently short duration (consulting) - jobs where management is not well-informed enough to make a good decision (non-engineering companies) - jobs at a very junior level (one can count on getting something out of an unknown new hire until the next technology shift). For a senior long-term hire, it doesn't really count for much relative to job experience. Theoretically certification could be important in arcane specialties, say, natural language recognition, but academia tends to take its place there; certification programs instead aim at shorter-haul achievements like learning Flex or J2EE. ... . . . . j Nick Weekes wrote: > not at all. my point is that a good dev should be aware of all > technologies, and not the one he is most comfortable with. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > *On Behalf Of *Tolulope Olonade > *Sent:* 28 February 2006 15:48 > *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [flexcoders] Re: RIA Certified Developer/Architect > > Umn that's a nice way of allowing the discussion enter the "Which > technology/platform is better" argument. > > I can tell u I have seen many. And so far in terms of aesthetics and > unconventional/unbounded creativity, flex is the strongest player I have > seen so far. Though I don't do much in it but I can smell the prospects J > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > *On Behalf Of *Nick Weekes > *Sent:* 28 February 2006 04:30 > *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [flexcoders] Re: RIA Certified Developer/Architect > > > > Im sure the Ajax 'evangelists' would wish the same thing, as would the > MS next gen people. Whatever is fit for purpose gets used, and the > market pretty much decides what becomes the standard, not the well > wishers ;-) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > *On Behalf Of *Tolulope Olonade > *Sent:* 28 February 2006 15:21 > *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [flexcoders] Re: RIA Certified Developer/Architect > > I am actually talking about Adobe making Flex the unofficial standard > for rich internet application development in a very smart way. > > So we flex evangelists can even carry the gospel further to executive pple J > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > *On Behalf Of *Nick Weekes > *Sent:* 28 February 2006 12:17 > *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [flexcoders] Re: RIA Certified Developer/Architect > > > > just my 10 cents, but over here in the UK graduates of tech (comp > science/systems dev etc) based degrees usually get some sort of > certification (mostly MSCE/MSCD). So we have college leavers with this > kind of certificate, which kind of puts certification at the > junior/entry level, rather than the 'niche carving' level. > > > > I think the fact that someone can put on their resume that they have solid experience of a (relatively new) tech such > as Flex is way more important. > > > > But maybe its totally different in other countries. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > *On Behalf Of *Tolulope Olonade > *Sent:* 28 February 2006 11:07 > *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [flexcoders] Re: RIA Certified Developer/Architect > > You are probably right. > > I jus suggest they don't stay too late on coming out with it. It could > really give them an edge and probably some market dominance. > > Remember there are other competing technologies/companies e.g Nexaweb, > ajax etc. > > Anyone of them that comes out early is most likely to carve a niche for > himself. > > Adobe do really have an edge for now J > > Regards > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > *On Behalf Of *Clint Modien > *Sent:* 28 February 2006 09:25 > *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] Re: RIA Certified Developer/Architect > > > > The point of most certifications is too insure to a resonable degree > that the person is capable of doing what they say they can do. > > I would hesitate to take a car I owned to anyone "claiming" to be a > mechanic but lacked formal certification. > > I think the bottom line is... there are certification programs for > other Adobe/Macromedia products... and I'm sure there will be one for > Flex in the not too distant future. > > On 2/27/06, *JesterXL* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > ...both of you, Jonathan and Brendan, have good attitudes, and > contribute to this list. Both of those facts alone would cause me to > hire you in a heartbeat. > > > > However, if you are looking for the sense of accomplishment, ability to > represent bigger companies, and the resume addition, then I understand. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Jonathan Miranda <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com <mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > > *Sent:* Monday, February 27, 2006 11:40 AM > > *Subject:* RE: [flexcoders] Re: RIA Certified Developer/Architect > > > > Would also like to know this.....if you got a company willing to pay for > training, take them up on it J* * > > _________________________________________ > > *Jonathan Miranda* > > *Flexible Master of the Web* > > //"In the game of chess, it's important to never let your opponent see > your pieces."// > > HealthGrades <http://www.healthgrades.com/>: Guiding America to Better > Healthcare(tm) > > NASDAQ: HGRD > > w (720) 963-3832 > > c (707) 761-0868 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > _________________________________________ > > The message contains confidential and/or legally privileged information > and is intended for use only by the indicated addressee. If you are not > the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute, or copy this > e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have > received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. > E-mail transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as > information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed,arrive late > or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept > liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message > which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is > required please request a hard-copy version. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com <mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com <mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com>] > *On Behalf Of *Brendan Meutzner > *Sent:* Monday, February 27, 2006 7:47 AM > *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com <mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > *Subject:* [flexcoders] Re: RIA Certified Developer/Architect > > > > I second this.... > > Flex has been publicly released for almost 2 years now, but we still > don't have a certification to strive for? > > Also, I've noticed individuals with the title of "Certified Flex > Instructor/Trainer" or something to that effect... What is it, and how > do I get it? > > Thanks, > > Brendan > > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com <mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com>, > "Tolulope Olonade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> >> Still wondering why Adobe hasnt come out with a certification track >> named similar as above :-) >> >> >> >> Regards >> > > > > > > -- > Flexcoders Mailing List > FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > SPONSORED LINKS > > Web site design development > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Web+site+design+development&w1=Web+ site+design+development&w2=Computer+software+development&w3=Software+des ign+and+development&w4=Macromedia+flex&w5=Software+development+best+prac tice&c=5&s=166&.sig=L-4QTvxB_quFDtMyhrQaHQ> > > > > > Computer software development > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+software+development&w1=We b+site+design+development&w2=Computer+software+development&w3=Software+d esign+and+development&w4=Macromedia+flex&w5=Software+development+best+pr actice&c=5&s=166&.sig=lvQjSRfQDfWudJSe1lLjHw> > > > > > Software design and development > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Software+design+and+development&w1= Web+site+design+development&w2=Computer+software+development&w3=Software +design+and+development&w4=Macromedia+flex&w5=Software+development+best+ practice&c=5&s=166&.sig=1pMBCdo3DsJbuU9AEmO1oQ> > > > Macromedia flex > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Macromedia+flex&w1=Web+site+design+ development&w2=Computer+software+development&w3=Software+design+and+deve lopment&w4=Macromedia+flex&w5=Software+development+best+practice&c=5&s=1 66&.sig=OO6nPIrz7_EpZI36cYzBjw> > > > > > Software development best practice > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Software+development+best+practice&; w1=Web+site+design+development&w2=Computer+software+development&w3=Softw are+design+and+development&w4=Macromedia+flex&w5=Software+development+be st+practice&c=5&s=166&.sig=f89quyyulIDsnABLD6IXIw> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > YAHOO! 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