Dave, I know. Thanks for the hint :) ------------------------------------ Thomas Rühl Design, Programming & Concepts akitogo OHG Hanauer Landstrasse 188 60314 Frankfurt Telefon +49 (0) 69 800 69 445 Fax +49 (0) 69 800 69 449 Mobil +49 (0) 179 750 75 87 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web http://www.akitogo.com ------------------------------------
Dave Wolf wrote: > > Thomas, > > Yes EA is a quite nice product. The price is even nicer! This was > the product I suggested in my reply to this thread. > > -- > Dave Wolf > Cynergy Systems, Inc. > Adobe Flex Alliance Partner > http://www.cynergysystems.com <http://www.cynergysystems.com> > http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs> > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:dave.wolf%40cynergysystems.com> > Office: 866-CYNERGY > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>, Thomas Rühl <thomas.ruehl@ ...> > wrote: > > > > > > Hey folks, to keep up the thinking ;) > > > > After some days of testing, testing and well... testing the UML tools > > out there, I think I finally found something that might work well for > > me. My tool of choice is Enterprise Architect by SparxSoftware: > > http://www.sparxsystems.com <http://www.sparxsystems.com> > > > > Some of the others, that I had my hands on are: > > * ArgoUML > > * MagicDraw > > * Visio > > * some others > > > > They all - well, except Visio which s*cks - have a touch of Java in > them > > - as if it is the only programming language available. In my opinion, > > the Enterprise Architect will be the best solution for me, since it is > > the most unspecific in terms of the programming languages. It has > > Actionscript support implementet though, but I didn't see the need to > > turn that on explicitly. > > > > Again, thanks for all your interest in the discussion. > > > > Cheers, Thomas > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Thomas Rühl > > Design, Programming & Concepts > > > > akitogo OHG > > Hanauer Landstrasse 188 > > 60314 Frankfurt > > > > Telefon +49 (0) 69 800 69 445 > > Fax +49 (0) 69 800 69 449 > > Mobil +49 (0) 179 750 75 87 > > E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Web http://www.akitogo.com <http://www.akitogo.com> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Bjorn Schultheiss wrote: > > > > > > D, > > > > > > OK cool, > > > > > > I retract the comment earlier about the contradicting statement. > > > > > > From your description i see the combination of both the HOW and the > > > WHAT as the definition of a front end developer. > > > My understanding is that the HOW process is where the designer aspect > > > of the developer comes into play and the WHAT process is where the > OOP > > > Code Freak aspect of the developer comes into play. > > > To me the HOW is a visual question while the WHAT is the > > > code implementation of the HOW solution. > > > > > > Perhaps this definition is not what originally intended but does it > > > make sense? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Bjorn Schultheiss > > > Senior Flash Developer > > > QDC Technologies > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>] > > > *On Behalf Of *Dave Wolf > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 8 August 2006 10:46 AM > > > *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > *Subject:* [flexcoders] Re: [Flex2] What do you use for modelling a > > > Flex2 application...? > > > > > > > > > I think you are misunderstanding that I am saying. Let me try it this > > > way and see if my point comes across more clearly. > > > > > > A large portion of UML is dedicated to answering the question of WHAT > > > you are developing. For example, use cases and activity diagrams both > > > focus on figuring out WHAT the problem set involves. So as an > > > example, WHAT you are designing might be an account registration > > > process which needs to support the ability to validate a users > > > password by a pluggable number of password rules. That is the WHAT. > > > It doesnt go into HOW you plan to implement that screen or process. > > > > > > The HOW side would be modelled in something like a class diagram or a > > > state transtion diagram. It might model that you need to create an > > > interface (code not graphical interface) which defines an API for a > > > pluggable set of rules (say the Command pattern that Cainforn loves so > > > much) etc. UML can wonder from the WHAT and into the HOW in certain > > > digrams. Some UML tools can generate source code to implement the HOW > > > side of the equation. > > > > > > Yes I would argue that there is a lack of Flex specific UML tooling, > > > but Flex is very new. I would not be surprised to see more UML code > > > generation tools. Then again there are actually quite a few UML tools > > > that can generate AS itself. A quick Google search reveals many. > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/search?q=actionscript+UML&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official > > <http://www.google.com/search?q=actionscript+UML&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official> > > > > > <http://www.google.com/search?q=actionscript+UML&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official > > <http://www.google.com/search?q=actionscript+UML&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official>> > > > > > > I'm quite a fan of a product called Enterprise Architect which has > > > ActionScript 2 support in it. Check it out at > > > > > > http://www.sparxsystems.com/ea.htm > <http://www.sparxsystems.com/ea.htm> > <http://www.sparxsystems.com/ea.htm <http://www.sparxsystems.com/ea.htm>> > > > > > > Hopefully I made my point about the difference between WHAT and HOW in > > > UML. The confusion came in that you were not interested in code > > > generation. > > > > > > I will leave my editorial comments about code generation and Caingorn > > > for another thread. For folks that have followed my threads here for > > > the last few years I think my position is well known. > > > > > > -- > > > Dave Wolf > > > Cynergy Systems, Inc. > > > Adobe Flex Alliance Partner > > > http://www.cynergysystems.com <http://www.cynergysystems.com> > <http://www.cynergysystems.com <http://www.cynergysystems.com>> > > > http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs> > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs>> > > > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . > > > <mailto:dave.wolf%40cynergysystems.com> > > > Office: 866-CYNERGY > > > > > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>, "Bjorn Schultheiss" > > > <bjorn.schultheiss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > The cowboy disagrees. > > > > > > > > I have just heard you pour your heart out about your innovative > > > approaches > > > > to developement process and how cool your UI's are. > > > > Then in the next paragraph let me quote. > > > > I dont think that your choice of HOW you develop software has any > > > impact on > > > > WHAT you are developing, > > > > > > > > I for one would be all for the developement of a UML tool or FB > > > plugin that > > > > will generate code that leverages the Cairngorm framework. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Bjorn Schultheiss > > > > Senior Flash Developer > > > > QDC Technologies > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > Behalf Of Dave Wolf > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 8 August 2006 7:01 AM > > > > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [flexcoders] Re: [Flex2] What do you use for modelling > a Flex2 > > > > application...? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flex development *is* like traditional development. The richness of > > > > the user experience and the wonder that you can deliver in terms of > > > > creativity does not open the door to chaos in the development > process. > > > > > > > > Just because historically people feel Flash development was "cowboy" > > > > doesnt mean that Flex development has to assume that role. Our > > > > clients range from little startups to the second largest retail bank > > > > in the nation. Cowboy is not an option. > > > > > > > > We may have an innovative approach to the development process, one > > > > which borders on some more bleeding edge ideals (say Agile), however > > > > the dicipline in the development process is the same. From our model > > > > and design sessions, to cases in the issue management system, to > > > > strict use of source control, automated builds and deploys, unit > tests > > > > etc. That's how great software is written regardless of the > technology. > > > > > > > > We are passionate about the richness of the user experience. You > will > > > > see it in the amazing UI's our folks are building and in our people. > > > > We are also passionate about the development process. > > > > > > > > This thread started by talking about modelling tools and how > > > > applicable they are to flex. I dont think that your choice of > HOW you > > > > develop software has any impact on WHAT you are developing, and > > > > modelling is all about WHAT. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Dave Wolf > > > > Cynergy Systems, Inc. > > > > Adobe Flex Alliance Partner > > > > http://www.cynergys <http://www.cynergysystems.com > <http://www.cynergysystems.com> > > > <http://www.cynergysystems.com <http://www.cynergysystems.com>>> > ystems.com > > > > http://www.cynergys <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs> > > > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs>>> > > > ystems.com/blogs > > > > > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:dave.wolf%40cynergysystems.com> > > > stems.com > > > > Office: 866-CYNERGY > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > ups.com, > > > > "Joost Nuijten" <flexcoders@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes I wish Flex development was more like traditional > > > application > > > > > development. At the other hand I shiver at the thought that the > > > > coolness of > > > > > Flex is degraded to this way of working. Flex = Flash. And > Flash is > > > > supposed > > > > > to be a creative chaos, cool, far away of the boreness of the IT > > > > world and > > > > > full of passion. That is how it's supposed to be. > > > > > > > > > > But it really depends on your kind of business... > > > > > > > > > > ~joost > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > ups.com > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > ups.com] > > > > Namens > > > > > Thomas Rühl -akitogo- > > > > > Verzonden: maandag 7 augustus 2006 9:59 > > > > > Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > ups.com > > > > > Onderwerp: Re: [flexcoders] Re: [Flex2] What do you use for > > > modelling a > > > > > Flex2 application...? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your interest so far... but this isn't really the > > > > direction I > > > > > intended to point out. > > > > > > > > > > Dave, I know that the documentation and modelling process > basically > > > > > doesn't depend on HOW an application is written. I'm not > trying from > > > > > model to generated code, although it would be really neat to > do so in > > > > > some cases ;) > > > > > > > > > > My concern is to evolve a process, starting with modelling an > > > > > application the "good old" way using software architecture > > > > > possibilities. This not only helps me to evaluate and improve an > > > > > application, in fact it is also important for me regarding > > > > documentation > > > > > and maintenance processes. > > > > > > > > > > Again, I do not necessarily want to generate the code based on a > > > UML or > > > > > other kind of diagrams, my interest targets the development > process > > > > > before actual implementation starts. > > > > > > > > > > As I said, for the Java world, there are lots of tools which > we are > > > > > missing for Flex at the moment. Problem being, these tools are > mostly > > > > > Java specific (for which I think they shouldn't), since they DO > > > want to > > > > > generate code out of the model. And this is the reason I am > > > interested > > > > > in how other folks do the modeling. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Thomas > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Rühl > > > > > Design, Programming & Concepts > > > > > > > > > > akitogo OHG > > > > > Hanauer Landstrasse 188 > > > > > 60314 Frankfurt > > > > > > > > > > Telefon +49 (0) 69 800 69 445 > > > > > Fax +49 (0) 69 800 69 449 > > > > > Mobil +49 (0) 179 750 75 87 > > > > > E-Mail thomas.ruehl@ <mailto:thomas.ruehl%40akitogo.com> > akitogo.com > > > > > Web http://www.akitogo. <http://www.akitogo. > > > <http://www.akitogo.com <http://www.akitogo.com> > <http://www.akitogo.com <http://www.akitogo.com>>> com> > > > > com > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > Jason wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > There are several AS2 model2code generators such as: > > > > > > http://www.darronsc > > > > > <http://www.darronsc > > > > <http://www.darronschall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm > <http://www.darronschall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm> > > > <http://www.darronschall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm > <http://www.darronschall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm>>> > > > > hall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm> > > > > > hall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm > > > > > > <http://www.darronsc > > > > > <http://www.darronsc > > > > <http://www.darronschall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm > <http://www.darronschall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm> > > > <http://www.darronschall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm > <http://www.darronschall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm>>> > > > > hall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm> > > > > > hall.com/weblog/archives/000174.cfm> > > > > > > http://www.codeallo <http://www.codeallo > > > > <http://www.codealloy.com/umlconverter.htm > <http://www.codealloy.com/umlconverter.htm> > > > <http://www.codealloy.com/umlconverter.htm > <http://www.codealloy.com/umlconverter.htm>>> y.com/umlconverter.htm> > > > > > y.com/umlconverter.htm > > > > > > <http://www.codeallo <http://www.codeallo > > > > <http://www.codealloy.com/umlconverter.htm > <http://www.codealloy.com/umlconverter.htm> > > > <http://www.codealloy.com/umlconverter.htm > <http://www.codealloy.com/umlconverter.htm>>> y.com/umlconverter.htm> > > > > > y.com/umlconverter.htm> > > > > > > and some others I can't remember right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > It will just be a matter of time untill someone updates one > of the > > > > > > projects for AS3, and ideally for Cairngorm. > > > > > > I poked around on sourceforge, but did not see an started > project. > > > > > > > > > > > > Darron Schall my be willing to provide his source as a starting > > > point > > > > > > for anyone looking to pick up the project -- it looks like > he has a > > > > > > SVN repository set for the source. > > > > > > > > > > > > --jason > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > ups.com > > > > > > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>, "Joost Nuijten" > > > > > > <flexcoders@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what Thomas is trying to say: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the Java world there are a lot of powerful tools that > generate > > > > > > the base > > > > > > > skeleton of code out of a model. For the Flex world this is > > > all hand > > > > > > work. > > > > > > > And how do we cope with this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is why it is important that we have a framework such as > > > > > > Cairngorm. The > > > > > > > one thing that we do not have is an automated tool that > > > > generates the > > > > > > > Cairngorm base skeleton. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** thinking about creating one myself ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joost > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > ups.com > > > > > > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > ups.com > > > > > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>] > > > > > > Namens > > > > > > > Dave Wolf > > > > > > > Verzonden: maandag 7 augustus 2006 2:33 > > > > > > > Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > ups.com > > > > > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > Onderwerp: [flexcoders] Re: [Flex2] What do you use for > > > modelling a > > > > > > Flex2 > > > > > > > application...? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why does the implementation language (the HOW) have anything > > > > > > > significant to do with the modelling and documentation > > > solution you > > > > > > > use (the WHAT) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you trying to go from model to generated code? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If modelling is important to your development process, > tried and > > > > > > > trusted modelling solutions such as UML would be capable of > > > > > > > documenting and managing the WHAT side of the development > process > > > > > > > regardless of the implementation HOW language. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Dave Wolf > > > > > > > Cynergy Systems, Inc. > > > > > > > Adobe Flex Alliance Partner > > > > > > > http://www.cynergys <http://www.cynergys > > > > <http://www.cynergys <http://www.cynergysystems.com > <http://www.cynergysystems.com> > > > <http://www.cynergysystems.com <http://www.cynergysystems.com>>> > ystems.com> > > > > > ystems.com > > > > > > <http://www.cynergys <http://www.cynergys > > > > <http://www.cynergysystems.com <http://www.cynergysystems.com> > <http://www.cynergysystems.com <http://www.cynergysystems.com>>> > > > ystems.com> ystems.com>> > > > > > ystems.com > > > > > > > http://www.cynergys <http://www.cynergys > > > > > <http://www.cynergys <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs> > > > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs>>> > > > > ystems.com/blogs> ystems.com/blogs > > > > > > <http://www.cynergys <http://www.cynergys > > > > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs> > > > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs > <http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs>>> ystems.com/blogs> > > > > > ystems.com/blogs>> > > > > > > ystems.com/blogs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:dave.wolf%40cynergysystems.com> > > > > > > stems.com > > > > > > > Office: 866-CYNERGY > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > ups.com, > > > > > > > Thomas R�hl -akitogo- > > > > > > > <thomas.ruehl@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi folks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it's been a while now, since the Flex2 SDK is out and > rockin' ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not only for larger projects, multiple teams or team > members and > > > > > > > > documentation purpose, I'd like to know, what everyone is > > > > using for > > > > > > > > modelling a Flex application. For the Java world I know, the > > > tools > > > > > > > > available are very powerful and work very well out of the > > > box and > > > > > > > > integrate with each other. There are also things like > OmondoUML, > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > we can be used for designing Java apps (doing use case and > > > > sequential > > > > > > > > diagram sort of stuff) in conjunction with creating the > > > > > > > corresponding code. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lack of Flex-specific tools for that kind of work still > > > leads > > > > > > > > towards endless times spent on the drawing table - at least > > > on my > > > > > > side.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, the question coming up my mind is, in what ways do > you all > > > > design > > > > > > > > your Flex applications before/during or after > implementation, if > > > > > > any....? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Thomas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thomas R�hl > > > > > > > > Design, Programming & Concepts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > akitogo OHG > > > > > > > > Hanauer Landstrasse 188 > > > > > > > > 60314 Frankfurt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Telefon +49 (0) 69 800 69 445 > > > > > > > > Fax +49 (0) 69 800 69 449 > > > > > > > > Mobil +49 (0) 179 750 75 87 > > > > > > > > E-Mail thomas.ruehl@ > > > > > > > > Web http://www.akitogo. <http://www.akitogo. > > > > <http://www.akitogo. <http://www.akitogo.com > <http://www.akitogo.com> > > > <http://www.akitogo.com <http://www.akitogo.com>>> com> > > > > > com > > > > > > <http://www.akitogo. <http://www.akitogo. > > > <http://www.akitogo.com <http://www.akitogo.com> > <http://www.akitogo.com <http://www.akitogo.com>>> com> > > > > com>> com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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