Great post Franck, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Seth, thanks for your reply as well.
For those that didn't see the post where I mentioned it, I gave a presentation this past Friday to the tech leads and members of the architecture group in my department. Overall the meeting went very well and most people seemed impressed. I included plenty of code demos that showcased the RAD aspects of Flex and the power of databinding. Most of the questions I got revolved around performance and scalability (so I am looking for good info to send out on those topics if anyone can recommend links), but interoperability was a big theme as well. FDS piqued everyone's interest, but learning that it was Java based deflated that balloon a bit. (I know about WebOrb, if there is enough interest I may investigate that further.) We are a large, Microsoft top to bottom shop, so anything we do has to integrate into that stack. Changing web services to suit Flex is certainly not an option, as the app I am prototyping with it is the UI for one piece of a large system. We will most likely never build an app whose only interface is Flex, so being able to sit Flex on top of what is already there to serve various other pieces is key. Flash/Flex is a hard enough sell as it is most times, due to the fact that it is such a foreign approach to most traditional developers. As I originally said and Franck echoed, Flex's success (read: adoption) will largely hinder on its ability to be plopped down on top of an existing infrastructure and create a kickass user experience. If this can only be done in environments based on Apache Axis, Flex will surely not flourish. I cannot possibly stress enough the need to get full web services support integrated sooner than Flex 3. As for my bizarre problem with Flex sending nulls to my service, it has been recommended that I reinstall FB. I will try that on Monday, but if it doesn't resolve the issue (which I don't think it will), I will need to seriously throttle my push for Flex adoption as I don't enjoy looking like an idiot. Thanks, Ben --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Franck de Bruijn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Seth, > > Thanks for your reply. It's always good to hear something from Adobe. > > I already thought that there were some tight links with Axis, since with the > Axis framework everything works like a charm. No problems whatsoever. But > with Doc/literal things are going wrong, which is more than a pity, since > Doc/literal (as you point out) is the new standard (also for JAVA) and > RPC/Encoded not. > > For me, personally, it's not that big of an issue, since I am in the > position to write my own (AXIS based) webservices, but from the mailing list > I notice that this is not the case for every one. They are not even in the > position to adapt the webservices as you explain below (I already asked). > The only work around for these guys I can think of is to develop their own > proxy webservice application. But, of course that is not an ideal situation. > > I agree with Ben that the way to interface with the backend is through > webservices only and not through Remote Objects (FDS) and/or HTTP services. > With webservices you realize a total decoupling between the client (Flex) > and the backend (choose your technology). With FDS you have a lock-in to > JAVA and Adobe on the back-end and that's something I do not desire. And > especially for the .Net people, it's a no-go. HTTP services are too basic > for thorough communication. > > For the future of Flex, it's of utmost importance that Flex starts > interoperating seamlessly with DOC/literal encoded webservices. If not, and > Ben expressed this already, Flex will be ruled out in decision meetings > (Ben: how did your meeting go?), which would be a great shame, since we are > all convinced of the many benefits of Flex over the traditional web client > languages, tooling and frameworks. > > I dare to phrase this even stronger. Flex has a very tough up-hill battle to > fight in order to gain market share. In the JAVA-world there is the upcoming > trend of AJAX/JSF/JAX-WS (DOC/literal) based solutions. Although these > solutions are far (and I mean far far far) inferior to Flex solutions, they > are difficult to beat. Purely due to the fact that AJAX/JSF/JAX-WS is > heavily promoted by the big companies Sun, Oracle and IBM. In the Microsoft > corner the VISTA development platform will come up (following the same track > as Flex). You can bet on it that VISTA will have seamless integration with > the DOC/Literal webservices. > > Knowing this, it is my fear that, if Flex will not have 100% seamless > support for DOC/Literal webservices, Flex will not survive or at most remain > as a niche product. This would be a great defeat, since, for me personally, > Flex is the only viable alternative for building RIAs. > > Already during the alpha releases of Flex I stressed this requirement > heavily on the mailing lists and forums (I even submitted a detailed test > report). To be honest, I actually find it amazing how much of the > webservices you have managed to cover in a lousy 2MB download, since I know > how difficult webservices are. But, and that's a great pity, we have to > conclude at this stage that this integration has not been realized for 100%; > It's not good enough. > > The good part is, though, that I can see that you guys from Adobe are > picking up on it. Ben already offered his help in testing pre-releases of a > next version of Flex. I also offer this (I have to stress my schedule > though, but I am willing to that) and maybe others will follow. If you're in > for this, we can maybe start an offline discussion how to set this up. > > We could start firing issues when encountered, but that's far from a > structural approach, which is needed for this topic, if you ask me. > > Let us know, > Cheers, > Franck > > -----Original Message----- > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Seth Hodgson > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 8:41 AM > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: WebService - What's wrong with this code? > > Hi Franck, Ben and Kaleb, > > First a little back story: the current web service stack in Flex shares many > similarities with Axis 1.X (some of the same folks authored both). Back when > these stacks were originally developed RPC services using SOAP encoding were > the rule. So the legacy RPC/Encoded support is solid. > > There were a variety of general inter-op and validation issues with > RPC/Encoded web services and that led to WS-I and the document literal > wrapped style. Support for this style is not quite as solid which is > unfortunate. This is an area that is being actively worked on now. If you > are running into specific problems with document literal wrapped, let us > know via Adobe support, the FDS forum > (http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid=60&cati > d=583) or here, and if it's an option, try out the RPC/Encoded style for the > service you're having trouble with. > > Regarding Kaleb's issue: I'm able to repro the problem of empty args being > sent in the call. It's a bug. However, if I adjust the xsd to use a nested > complex type for the string arrays like so: > > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> > <xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"; > xmlns:tns="http://server.webservices.tutorials.wakaleo.com/"; > targetNamespace="http://server.webservices.tutorials.wakaleo.com/"; > version="1.0"> > <xs:element xmlns:ns1="http://server.webservices.tutorials.wakaleo.com/"; > type="ns1:sendStrings" name="sendStrings"></xs:element> > <xs:complexType name="sendStrings"> > <xs:sequence> > <xs:element type="tns:ArrayOfString" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="1" > name="strings"></xs:element> > </xs:sequence> > </xs:complexType> > <xs:complexType name="ArrayOfString"> > <xs:sequence> > <xs:element minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded" name="string" > nillable="true" type="xs:string" /> > </xs:sequence> > </xs:complexType> > <xs:element xmlns:ns2="http://server.webservices.tutorials.wakaleo.com/"; > type="ns2:sendStringsResponse" name="sendStringsResponse"></xs:element> > <xs:complexType name="sendStringsResponse"> > <xs:sequence> > <xs:element type="tns:ArrayOfString" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="1" > name="strings"></xs:element> > </xs:sequence> > </xs:complexType> > </xs:schema> > > And then make the call: ws.sendStrings(["foo", "bar"]); > > The outbound SOAP body contains the serialized array of strings: > > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?> > <SOAP-ENV:Envelope > xmlns:SOAP-ENV="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/"; > xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"; > xmlns:xsi="http://www..w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance";><SOAP-ENV:Body><ns1:s > endStrings > xmlns:ns1="http://server.webservices.tutorials.wakaleo.com/";><strings><strin > g>foo</string><string>bar</string></strings></ns1:sendStrings></SOAP-ENV:Bod > y></SOAP-ENV:Envelope> > > I don't know if you can regenerate your service based on the updated schema > but it may be worth a try. > > Best, > Seth > > -----Original Message----- > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Franck de Bruijn > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 9:49 PM > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: WebService - What's wrong with this code? > > And today this one came in: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/message/47827 > > What I sense is that most of the problems are somehow related to DOC/Literal > versus RPC/Encoded, but of course I cannot be sure. > > I'm exposing my webservices both via DOC/Literal and RPC/Encoded. These > webservices take a variety of arguments and also return a variety of > results. With variety I mean from simple primitive types, to complex objects > nested within complex objects containing arrays of Strings. > > Via RPC/Encoded everything works as a charm (I'm using the Apache AXIS > engine), but via DOC/Literal issues arise. > > Cheers, > Franck > > -----Original Message----- > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Tom Lee > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 5:16 PM > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: WebService - What's wrong with this code? > > And my personal favorite: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/message/47493 > > -----Original Message----- > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of ben.clinkinbeard > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 10:50 AM > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [flexcoders] Re: WebService - What's wrong with this code? > > Here are a couple. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/messages/47267?threaded=1&m=e&var=1 > &tidx=1 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/messages/46548?threaded=1&m=e&var=1 > &tidx=1 > > I can confirm that I am working with an Adobe engineer to try and > resolve both issues (our company has a support contract with Adobe), > so they are listening and interested in fixing issues people are > having. I think thats a good sign. > > Ben > > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel D. Colak" <sam.colak@> > wrote: > > > > Umm Franck what issues with webservices? > > > > > > On 15/8/06 20:00, "Franck de Bruijn" <franck.de.bruijn@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That¹s exactly what Ben is hammering at. > > > > > > It¹s too hard to get webservices up and running in a production-like > > > application easy. It¹s true that Adobe is focussing more on FDS > than on the > > > support for webservices, which is truely a pity. Let¹s hope it¹ll > change in > > > the (near) future. I already saw a good sign of an Adobe engineer > trying to > > > look into our problems. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Franck > > > > > > > > > > > > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > > Of Samuel D. Colak > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:22 AM > > > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: WebService - What's wrong with this > code? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hold on VS buggy ?? My god, that¹s amazing news there was I > thinking for a > > > moment that M$oft had got it right at least once - fraid to say > im most > > > disappointed my world has surely shattered frankly I would > advise everyone > > > that can to use the Eclipse plugin rather than the IDE under > Windows. I have > > > experienced far fewer issues with Eclipse ;) But I have > experienced SOME ! > > > > > > Im working with both VS.Net 2005 and Eclipse/Flex cant say that > there have > > > been any issues with WebServices AT-ALL categorically using > actionscript. I > > > must admit it wasn¹t easy but its a tad different getting use to > asyncronous > > > webservice calling though Flex¹s event model but I finally managed > to make > > > something very elegant and scalable. Obviously this isnt for the > fainthearted > > > and you might have to unlearn somethings from the VS world (as I > did) to deal > > > with the Flex logic. > > > > > > If anyone is stuck, give me a shout.. > > > Samuel > > > > > > > > > On 15/8/06 10:02, "sinatosk" <sinatosk@> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ah white spaces. convert that URL using urlencode.... can't > remember the > > >> function/method name but it's around > > >> > > >> thats might do the trick :p > > >> > > >> On 14/08/06, Tom Lee <design@> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Thanks, Ben - > > >> > > >> Your code works fine. My code, even after I manually edited to > make it > > >> identical to yours, does not. I can only conclude that Flex > Builder is on > > >> crack. Seriously, I went over it line by line... No differences > except > > >> whitespace. I hope this is not going to become a behavioral > pattern in > > >> Builder... I work with Visual Studio, and there's no room for > more than one > > >> buggy IDE in my life. > > >> > > >> Thanks again, > > >> > > >> -tom > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > >> [mailto: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> ] > > >> On > > >> Behalf Of ben.clinkinbeard > > >> Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 10:01 PM > > >> To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > >> Subject: [flexcoders] Re: WebService - What's wrong with this code? > > >> > > >>> > Does it compile for you without errors? > > >> > > >> Yep, this exact code works for me. > > >> > > >> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?> > > >> <mx:Application xmlns:mx="http://www.adobe.com/2006/mxml"; > > >> layout="absolute" creationComplete="init()"> > > >> <mx:Script> > > >> <![CDATA[ > > >> import mx.rpc.soap.LoadEvent; > > >> import mx.rpc.soap.WebService; > > >> > > >> private function init():void > > >> { > > >> var myWebService:WebService; > > >> myWebService = new WebService(); > > >> > > >> > > >> > myWebService.loadWSDL("http://webservices.amazon.com/AWSECommerceService/AWS > > >> ECommerceService.wsdl"); > > >> myWebService.addEventListener("load", > > >> loadComplete); > > >> } > > >> > > >> private function loadComplete(event:LoadEvent):void > > >> { > > >> trace("ALL GOOD"); > > >> } > > >> ]]> > > >> </mx:Script> > > >> </mx:Application> > > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > > >>> > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>> [mailto: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> ] > > >>> On > > >>> > Behalf Of ben.clinkinbeard > > >>> > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 12:42 PM > > >>> > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>> > Subject: [flexcoders] Re: WebService - What's wrong with this > code? > > >>> > > > >>> > For your second example, if you wrap the lines other than the > import > > >>> > inside of a function it should work. > > >>> > > > >>> > HTH, > > >>> > Ben > > >>> > > > >>> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> , > > >>> "Tom Lee" <design@> wrote: > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > I can't figure this out for the life of me - I'm following > other > > >>> > people's > > >>>> > > examples, but still getting errors. This must be something > obvious. > > >>> > Here's > > >>>> > > my code (I've removed the actual WSDL url): > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > <mx:Application xmlns:mx="http://www.adobe.com/2006/mxml"; > > >>> > layout="absolute"> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > <mx:Script> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > <![CDATA[ > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > import > mx.rpc.soap.WebService; > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > var > myWebService:WebService; > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > function initWS(){ > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > myWebService = new > > >>>> > > WebService(); > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > myWebService.loadWSDL("**********************"); > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > } > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > ]]> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > </mx:Script> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > </mx:Application> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > And here's my error: > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > 1061: Call to a possibly undefined method loadWSDL through a > > >>> > reference with > > >>>> > > static type WebService. (Line 9) > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > I've tried a bunch of different stuff - here's another > variation, > > >> which > > >>>> > > throws different errors: > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > <mx:Application xmlns:mx="http://www.adobe.com/2006/mxml"; > > >>> > layout="absolute"> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > <mx:Script> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > <![CDATA[ > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > import > mx.rpc.soap.WebService; > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > var > myWebService:WebService; > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > myWebService = new > WebService(); > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > myWebService.loadWSDL("******************************"); > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > ]]> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > </mx:Script> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > </mx:Application> > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > And the errors: > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > 1120: Access of undefined property myWebService. (Lines 8 & 9) > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > Thanks! > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > - tom > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > -- > > >>> > Flexcoders Mailing List > > >>> > FAQ: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > >>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt> > > >>> > Search Archives: > > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > >>> > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >>> > > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Flexcoders Mailing List > > >> FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > >> Search Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Flexcoders Mailing List > FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Flexcoders Mailing List > FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > -- > Flexcoders Mailing List > FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > -- > Flexcoders Mailing List > FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! 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