You made me think again, Peter. I believe I'm wrong in what I said
earlier in this thread about child-to-parent references. Seems like I
mixed up things that I learned back in my Delphi days when one had to do
reference-counting. I'm going over my changes again... Sorry for the
noise.

On 23.03.2003 02:12:00 Peter B. West wrote:
>  From your description, there is no noticeable overlap.  You seem to be 
> looking at relationships between siblings.  However, the general 
> discussion puzzles me a bit.  I cannot see the problem with references, 
> or to be more specific, I cannot see the problem with the disciplined 
> use of references.
> 
> When I first started work on fop-related code, I wrote the Tree and Node 
> classes as a general tree structure (not finding anything suitable as 
> part of collections or some such.)  It seemed to me that such a 
> structure would actually be of assistance in designing and in 
> understanding what was happening with the various "trees".  The methods 
> to add, copy and, particularly, delete subtrees take care of the 
> necessary internal references.  If any external references into the 
> subtrees remain, GC on a deleted subtree will be defeated, but this is a 
> general problem.
> 
> All of this adds overhead, but it also adds structure and 
> comprehensibility.  I am continually feeling chastened by the sound 
> design and implementation principles expressed in this group.  That 
> makes it even more puzzling to me that an structure as central as a tree 
> is not given direct expression.
> 
> It seems to me that the relationships within and across the Area tree 
> require more, not less, structure and the necessary abstractions to 
> express that structure.  Node has, e.g., PrecedingSibling and 
> FollowingSibling iterators.  There may be more efficient ways to express 
> iteration states than in Iterator objects, but the principle of a 
> general provision for such operations is surely sound.
> 
> I may have missed the point in this particular discussion and leapt off 
> on a tangent, but I hope it has some bearing.


Jeremias Maerki


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