Michael, thank you for your input. Fred’s point led me to that exact thinking! I am having to write a research and practice paper for my MA and the films I am writing about were all made in China without any official permissions. I will research the Chinese filmmakers that you mentioned.
Best, Jaime https://jaimcleeland.wixsite.com/clown-trilogy Sent from my iPad > On 2 Mar 2021, at 19:37, Michael Sicinski <mjsicin...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Jaime, to elaborate on Fred’s point just a bit, “underground” has a very > specific meaning in, say, Chinese cinema. Official films must be submitted to > a CCP censorship board. Only official films get released. But there are > “underground” filmmakers whose work circulates as samizdat, and is shown in > unofficial festival settings. Many of the most lauded Chinese filmmakers, > such as Jia Zhangke and Wang Xiaoshuai, began underground, then “became” > official. > > There is a somewhat similar process in Iran. > > Michael Sicinski > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Mar 2, 2021, at 11:33 AM, Jaime Cleeland <ethnom...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >>> >> Jonathan and Fred, >> I appreciate what both of you have written. The avant garde is for me, >> largely as Jonathan mentioned ‘intro film class’ which I guess every film >> studies department briefly touches upon in the 1st year. >> Fred, the idea that ‘Underground’ could still work in a repressive country, >> is an interesting point and I will research that some more. >> >> Thank you and stay healthy, >> Jaime >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>>> On 2 Mar 2021, at 17:46, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com> wrote: >>>> >>> >>> Dear Jonathan, >>> >>> I mostly agree with what you wrote too, including your disagreement with >>> me. You are getting at many important nuances. I'm not a huge fan of Rose >>> Lowder's films, but when I heard her introduce her work as "experimental," >>> as in, "I make these not certain of what I am going to get," I had to >>> acknowledge, in accordance with my "dogma" that there are no rules for >>> making art, that her position is as valid as any other. >>> >>> Certainly seeing my first "avant-garde" film at 15 felt like an >>> "avant-garde" experience, in that I had never seen anything like it. Most >>> single screen work being made in decades since, however, does seem to be >>> working, at least on a superficial viewing, within existing traditions. >>> >>> In my experience with young film students reared on a diet of YouTube and >>> the rest, most are not all that surprised by anything. >>> >>> Fred Camper >>> Chicago >>> >>> On 3/2/2021 10:11 AM, Jonathan Walley wrote: >>>> I agree with everything Fred says here, with one exception, I guess. Un >>>> Chien Andalou (or Mothlight, or Meshes of the Afternoon, etc. etc. etc.) >>>> is still avant-garde to an 18-year-old hayseed in an intro film class. >>>> Generally “avant-garde” is thought of as an historical designation and so, >>>> as Fred implies “It might work in a repressive country in which you could >>>> not really show your films”), but I also tend to think of it as an effect. >>>> In that case, the relevant history is not global, but personal - the >>>> history of the hayseed. >>>> >>>> [I know “hayseed” is impolite, but I just mean it as blanket term for >>>> innocent eyes, and after all, I do teach in Ohio]. >>>> >>>> I do think that underground is more specific than experimental or >>>> avant-garde, with historically-bound connotations (certain variants of >>>> experimental film output of the 1960s into the early 1980s, with punk film >>>> and the cinema of transgression as examples). While I am wary of the >>>> implication of “experimental” to which Fred alludes (as in, “they’re just >>>> experimenting; eventually they’ll get it right”), I still think it’s the >>>> least loaded, most neutral term to encompass a cinematic tradition that, >>>> if heterogeneous to the point of anarchy, is nonetheless discernible. >>>> “Underground” and “avant-garde” can be considered sub-categories, I >>>> suppose. >>>> >>>> For what it’s worth… >>>> >>>> JW >>>> >>>> >>>> Jonathan Walley >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Department of Cinema >>>> Denison University >>>> https://denison.edu/people/jonathan-walley >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 2, 2021, at 10:53 AM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I've given this issue, along with that of "experimental," more thought >>>>> than it perhaps deserves. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think "underground" works at all today. It only barely worked in >>>>> the 60s. It might work in a repressive country in which you could not >>>>> really show your films. Our culture, whatever one thinks of it, has >>>>> become too open and too diverse for this word. But I don't think >>>>> "avant-garde" works either. So much has been done; most filmmakers are >>>>> working within existing traditions. Nor is "experimental" of much use, >>>>> except for a minority who, for better or for worse, feel that the word is >>>>> right for them. A response to that word from one filmmaker decades ago: >>>>> "I made many experiments while working on this film. I left them behind >>>>> in my editing room. What you will see is a finished work." >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand, just calling these works "films" doesn't work either; >>>>> your viewers will be for most such films be disappointed to find no >>>>> evidence of Batman, or Luke Skywalker, or similarFrame. We need a >>>>> neologism, but I have never found one. >>>>> >>>>> Fred Camper >>>>> Chicago >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/2/2021 2:33 AM, Jaime Cleeland wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> How would y’all differentiate between calling a filmmaker ‘Underground’ >>>>>> as opposed to ‘Avant-Garde’? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Jaime >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Frameworks mailing list >>>>> Frameworks@film-gallery.org >>>>> https://mail.film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Frameworks mailing list >>> Frameworks@film-gallery.org >>> https://mail.film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
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