On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Mike Smith wrote:
> Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 18:08:39 -0700
> From: Mike Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...)
>
> > > > As a newbie to kernel programming, who might need a little help and guidance,
> > > > the above is certainly true. I can attest to the fact that I have a certain
> > > > reluctance to post some of my questions to this list(hackers). I have posted
> > > > some in the past, many of which have gone unanswered, to which I know answers
> > > > exists. This is certainly not the case in all situations.
> > >
> > > Are you willing to accept that you may have been judged "not worth the
> > > effort" on the content of your questions, or are we going to have
> > Yes I am.
>
> Cool. Note the different between "not worth" and "never will be worth".
>
> > > another flamewar about whether we should be opening a developers'
> > > kindergarten?
> > Oh. Ok if this is case where are the guidelines as to what is "worth the
> > effort?" This determination is obviously relative.
>
> Not so much "relative" as subjective (and thus impossible to document).
> Use your common sense - if you don't get any replies, it's obvious that
> you haven't motivated anyone to reply. It's not that the people you're
> trying to wish actively dislike you or want to discourage you.
>
> > > There is no sense in wasting the time of one informed developer to help
> > > one uninformed developer; this is a bad tradeoff unless the uninformed
> > > developer is showing signs of promise. The only way to assess this is
> > > to look at the questions they ask and the context they're asking them
> > > from. Nobody wants to answer one obvious question if there's any
> > > chance at all that the questioner will latch onto them and demand
> > > answers for dozens more - this isn't "helping someone", it's "doing
> > > their work for free".
> > You are right I jumped to learning about FreeBSD kernel development, which I
> > don't get paid for in any way, so that I could have someone else do it...
> > Try to be a little reasonable here, I would not be here if I did not want to
> > learn. Which means doing my own work.
>
> Exactly. But sniping at the readership here for not answering your
> messages, or for being continually rude isn't "doing your own work",
> it's being childish and blind.
>
> > I would be hard pressed to read the list for a day and not find a demeaning or
> > wasteful comment from some of the developers on this list. So apparently some
> > people do have time negative responses.
>
> This is a popular throwaway line, but not really accurate.
>
> > Does a helpful response, even a "stupid" one take that much time? I did
> > realize how busy you were.
>
> Yes! Buying into answering one question usefully can involve teaching
> you a dozen things before you will understand it. What may seem like a
> helpful but flippant response is typically taken as an insult simply
> because the average asker is preconditioned from hearing dribble like
> your paragraph above into assuming that anything other than a book for
> an answer is "dismissal".
>
> > > So, regardless of whether you've asked a question or not, you need to
> > > understand that the onus rests solely on yourself to pursue the answer.
> > > They're all there in the code, where everyone else that you're asking
> > > has already found them.
> > This is absolutely correct and in many cases the most inefficient way to go.
>
> Crap. It's the most _efficient_ way in terms of return on effort
> invested.
>
> > It is certainly helpful to answer a question that is on the tip of one's
> > tongue rather than wading through lines of code especially if it is holding
> > up the work of others.
>
> You make it sound like these "answers" are three-word phrases; as
> though someone could just say a few tiny words to you and all would be
> clear. If it was that simple, you'd have an answer.
>
> What irritates me the most is that you and others in your position
> won't accept the fact that things are complicated. Oh no, it has to be
> these evil nasty people that don't want you to learn. Yeah. That's it.
You sure know a lot about me! Are you making these assumptions about
me and "others like me" based on what I am posting now or previous postings?
I am really sorry you are irritated.
>
> Too much Joe McCarthy and the X-Files for you, I think.
Thanks I will try not to watch so much TV.
>
> > However you are correct definitive answers are in the
> > code... all 1 million+ lines..
>
> Correct. Where do you think the rest of us found our answers? What
> makes you think we have yours? Pass the bar or find something else
> that you _can_ do. I can't draw. I'm a terrible musician. Do I
> complain that the artists are keeping all the secrets of easy drawing
> to themselves? Do I whine that nobody will just teach me how to play
> well, rather than telling me to go back to basics and work through a
> million pages of lame tutorials, scales, and so forth?
>
> There's no magic bullet. Deal with it.
How did I not get though life without your words of wisdom?
>
> --
> \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith
> \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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