Le 24/05/2013 18:57, Welcome, Traiano a écrit :
Hi Julian
Thanks, any response is appreciated, here's mine:
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
hack...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Julian H. Stacey
Sent: 24 May 2013 15:39
To: Welcome, Traiano
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Writing a (BSD like) Operating Systems From Scratch
"Welcome, Traiano" wrote:
Hi All
I've been read thousands of pages of FreeBSD and Linux Kernel source
code and books on the internals of BSD and Linux over the years in attempt
to develop a complete understanding of operating systems (or at least, UNIX
like ones). However, I feel that I'm as mystified as to the finer details as
when I first started. So I've concluded that the best way to really understand
the deep dark details of UNIX is to try and write one from scratch (using the
general guidelines of standards like POSIX etc ...), and maybe taking a peek at
BSD and Linux from time to time. My questions around this are:
Sorry, but your questions & text (see mega line above, no folds ! Ugh) tell me
A) You dont know enough, & would be better working with an
existing
project, be it a BSD Linux Minix Sprite Mach whatever. Maybe
also doing some formal training in OSs eg a Uni. degree
in computing or whatever.
Right on the mark, Julian! The don't know enough part especially, hence the
_questions_ (Normally asked by people who don't know enough).
May I ask where you get the divine wisdom to know where I "would be better working
with" ? don't you think that would be best left up to me?
So what if formal training in OSes is not an option to me ? Not all of us have
the wealth and time, nor privilege of coming from a family that can
afford such an education, like myself for example. What do you recommend for
those of us who have neither the wealth nor luxury of time to pursue
" a Uni. degree in computing or whatever." ?
You appear not to realize that to even begin working with one of the existing
projects, you'd best have a solid understanding of OSes to begin with,
which brings up an interesting catch -22 that goes something like:
"You can't join the club, because you don't know enough. You can't know enough
'till you join our club".
Is that the case or am I mistaken ?
I don't think there is any kind of "club". There are just peoples that
know better than others how does works one or many parts of the system,
but not the entire system and other peoples krowing other parts, etc.
You'll see (if not already) that everytime you discover new things, you
discorver in the same time there is a lot to do more ! Even on a little
system on a classic computer (ARM, x86…)
B) You havent realised technology is moving faster & with ever more
more people working on OSs & tools, its like looking in
from the edge of an exploding galaxy & trying to understand
all within: by the time you do, its grown !
May I ask how you jumped to that conclusion? What makes you think I want to
keep at the cutting edge of everything?
All I want to begin at the very basis and build up from there at my own pace,
until I'm capable of building something very
Basic, functional and something I can use to illustrate to myself the design
principles involved in building operating systems.
C) If people devoted tons of time over years to help you along,
it would be their & your time wasted to achieve anothernice
OS time that would be better spent if you & they worked
together on improving an existing OS - see (A) above.
Where did you get the idea that I'm asking for tons of time over years ? Have
you a record of me going around the internet pestering people for answers on
how to build operating systems? All I asked for was a couple of links and
pointers, maybe a good book or two. Besides, I'd be of no using helping to
build spacecraft if I can barely build a cart, so no, my time would not be
better spent helping people who really have a clue to improve existing OSes.
Dont be so aggressive. He is juste saying it has much more chances to be
a waste of time to _start and continue_ developping from scratch than
continue developping existing projects. Starting from scratch is
absolutely not the only way to learn by ourself.
Sorry it's not what you want to hear but modern OS are too big for
1 man, & evolving too fast, even those called Jollitz Tannenbaum or Linus, got
replaced/ supplemented by Teams. Choose a project team & an aspect/
technology within the team, & that will be useful not a waste of time.
I don't accept the conjecture that modern OSes are too big for one man. Modern
OSes and their associated entourage of userpace and plugin modules maybe, but
not the basic kernel/supervisor program. An OS is as big or small as you make
it. I would like to eat this particular elephant one bite at a time.
I agree on this point. If you take a very tiny micro-controller, for a
single (wo)man it is ok of course. But you'll learne about uC and not
about computers which are much more developped than uC.
PS: can you please take care about line wrapping ? I don't krow if it's
the good word but the previous answer has'nt been broke to fitt on my
screen ;)
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