I agree on the need for multiperson videoconference hosting in Freedombox. Though, as Jonas Smedegaard says, the hardware demands may be beyond many freedomboxes, as far as I know there is no max-spec for which Freedombox is designed. The platforms hosted by Debian Social (https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianSocial/) do make a decent package wishlist.

Jami just (as of October 16th) turned into videoconferencing server software. It still does peer-to-peer, too. Separately, there is a new "Jami Account Management Server", which does e-mail style distributed addressing. It seems to me that these changes put it in-scope for Freedombox. The October Jami release is not yet in Debian, but the last two versions are in sid and stable. Jami focusses on low hardware and bandwidth requirements, so might be a better fit than Jitsi.
https://jami.net/together-the-new-version-of-jami-and-a-new-step-forward/

On https://www.freedombox.org/, it currently states:
"FreedomBox provides a secure, decentralized replacement for WhatsApp. Do group chats and audio/video calls from any device." I think this refers to XMPP, which can be made to do these, sometimes. https://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox/Introduction has a more up-to-date version of the leading screenshot, too.


And now to answer to Fioddor Superconcentrado's broader point. I think there is a large user group that wants a stable, secure, low-maintenance server. A fast-moving all-the-latest-gadgets server is frankly a pain in the neck, not just to package maintainers but to the server admin and the end users. Most people are a lot less interested in server maintenance than anyone on this list. No objection to a multitiered contribs/non-free/Yunohost-ports setup, but it should remain possible to run Freedombox as a Debian Pure blend.

Debian's twin focus on freedom and stability is not co-incidence. They are interdependent. I cannot see any technical reason why videoconferencing could not have stable standards; it's a good goal. There seems likewise no reason why an e-mail or filesharing or Mumble or IRC server should need frequent (non-security) updates. A website should generally need such updates only for new content; you should not be running to stand still. Tellingly, browsers now brag of their ability to turn off web features for privacy and security. I'm not arguing against change here. Just no widespread "break everything and redo from start" change without very good reason.

Anyone who has looked at, say, Android or HTML5 knows that some changes are not in users' interests. Changes "to gather more user data", "to implement DRM", or "because we can't make independent decisions, and [power-holder] required it" aren't features you can sell to endusers. But unfree alternatives are frequently marketed on fashion, not features. Fashions are easier to manufacture: "We aren't like the bad old competitor! Pay no attention to our similar potential for surveillance and manipulation. Our new product is the latest modern space where all the cool people are. If you don't use our product, you're outdated and you've fallen behind the times. Your friends and potential customers will hold you in contempt for your stodgy prudish fussy old-fashionedness. Everyone else is doing it". This is the software equivalent of "You might think you want a robust, durable smartphone with USB ports, good ergonomics and long battery life, but really you want a tiny wafer phone that eats batteries, breaks if you drop it, and regularly costs you hundreds in replacement parts and proprietary connectors, because it is fashionable". Marketing tech by playing on fears of being outdated is clever targetting. But no-one can adopt everything new, and our adoption criteria need to be better than fashion.

Less-free alternatives are legitimately marketed on ease and convenience. Freedombox is basically an attempt to make self-hosting easy and convenient. Freedombox is what every software start-up wishes to be perceived as: independent, private, ad-free, democratic, user-controlled, in a political and legal structure which keeps it that way. We could point this out, and satirize fashion-shaming social-trap marketing. But we are better than fashionable; we have features. Thanks to everyone who's added them!




On 2020-11-25 06:30, Fioddor Superconcentrado wrote:
Sorry for the long report. I hope its structure helps a diagonal read.


In my humble and still quite ignorant opinion, the most *important
challenges* for FreedomBox in 2020, Q4 are:

*Video-conferencing feature*:
Covid19 has forced masses of people and small businesses online. Those
newcomers are falling into free-as-in-free-beer SaaSS traps. We missed a huge opportunity to serve and grow, and we should catch up ASAP and rescue as many as we can. FreedomBox needs a proper video-conferencing solution
for individuals and small communities. I don't know if I'm biased by my
personal experience, but I tried to get my daughters to use JSXC and it
resulted to be way too buggy.

*Consistency*:
We're inconsistent! We and/as debianites use Jitsi Meet for
videoconferencing, but it is not packaged in Debian and due to web
standards evolving so fast, will likely never be, unless it is granted the
same exceptional status that browsers have.

Project *effectiveness* as *relevance* for end users:

- This is becoming a general trend: It happened to Docker, VirtualBox, PyCharm, etc. Despite the growth in the amount of packages maintained, more and more popular free software is installable but missing in Debian => It
   needs a strategic solution at Debian level.
- As Debian pure blend this limits us over other solutions. I don't know how far we could/should bend those limits. I believe we could include such software as long as we clearly distinguish what is FreedomBox (Debian) and what are external plug-ins. YunoHost would be a good partner here because
   they're Debian based as well. If not allowed, we should *consider*
prioritising purpose over path/means and become a derivative instead of a
   pure blend. I say *"consider"* because we might as well decide to
prioritise the path over the purpose and remain a limited effort to provide
   privacy with available hard-certified free software only.
   - This challenge has technical aspects but it is a political issue.
Foundation might push/help to raise awareness of this within Debian (?).
   - DPL said in DebConf 2020 that Debian was overbudgeted (See

https://chuangtzu.ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2020/DebConf20/9-bits-from-the-dpl.webm
   at minute 3:00 to 9:30). Well, I guess the problem isn't the money
actually, but rather a very constrained list of policy/culture-compliant
   ways to spend that money. Debian is volunteer-run by definition for
independence's sake and thus, we should avoid money to become a vital infrastructure. Instead, it should better remain an optional accelerator we can live without. Foundation might perhaps persuade Debian to spend buying
   upstream (or from Freexian, see
https://www.freexian.com/en/services/debian-sponsorship.html) solutions
   to problems suffered by Debian (?).


In my humble and still quite ignorant opinion, in order for Freedombox to
become a *mainstream consumer* solution we need:

To *fix* the minimal viable product (*MVP*).
The basic functionality must work out of the box and the admin procedures
must be easy to find and execute.
Find below my suggestions for developer priorities, for more details.

*Marketing*:
Strategy: I see at least 2 compatible, but different approaches:

   - Seek geeks as evangelists for consumers trusting their advice.
- Consumer first approach with geek goodies as secondary extra value.

Numerically-controlled: Hard facts and metrics are key to manage anything,
if you seek results, and marketing is no exception.

There was some interest 2 years ago in a marketing team but it diluted (See #1944 <https://salsa.debian.org/freedombox-team/freedombox/-/issues/1944>).
Perhaps it can be re-launched?

To *prioritize* *purpose* over maintainability.
         Current examples of the opposite:

- The apps are sorted by app name (identification) instead of by user
   functionality (delivered value). See #1859
   <https://salsa.debian.org/freedombox-team/freedombox/-/issues/1859>.
- Self-constraining to be a pure blend (maintainability) over providing a highly demanded, available, free software based, working solution (like
   Jitsi Meet).

Prioritising purpose isn't gratis. It implies some extra effort.

To *collaborate* with other privacy-focused *communities*:
        * "On your own, you get faster. Accompanied, you get further."*

   - Self-hosting: FreedomBone, YunoHost, SandStorm,
   https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2020/11/msg00202.html.
- Offgrid: See https://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox/Design#Similar_Projects
   - Alternative networks/services: Tor, I2P, Disapora, GNUSocial,
   Mastodon, Matrix, Protonmail, DuckDuckGo...etc
   - Privacy Tools Debian Maintainers:
   https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/PkgPrivacyMaintainers
   - https://lbry.com, FSF/FSFE/FSF-LA, ...
   - Current upstream.
   - Would-be upstream. See
   https://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox/LeavingTheCloud

We should list such communities on our wiki in order to track them.

I've tried to set my proposal for *developer priorities* in line with the
previous view/goal:

1. Fix *basic* usage/UX *caveats*:

   - The easiest path for consumers is *buying a kit*. Our webs still
highlights download over purchase or as equivalent options. Consumers use to think that 'download' is more affordable, and when they discover that it is technical and difficult they just give up because they already forgot they can cheaply buy-and-plug. Download should be marketed as a secondary choice because it is a very interesting solution for a secondary target
   (geeks). It should always be presented as such.
- A router reset (caused for example by a power outage) renders the *FB
   unreachable*. (Q&A doc can help a lot!!) See #1833
   <https://salsa.debian.org/freedombox-team/freedombox/-/issues/1833>.
- Some *asynchronous procedures* cause uncertainty, provoking a feeling
   of unfinished product. On screen spinners help. We need some helper
   mechanisms to be able to read progress and report it to the user in
   real-time.

 2. Fix *reachability*:
Once the consumer has FB running in her LAN and benefits from it, a
usual step is wanting to share it with family and friends.

   - Current *networking documentation* is still difficult for regular
consumers (magels). Graphical schemes help a lot but the UI still uses too
   much technical jargon and lacks explanations of consequences and
side-effects. I don't yet see a clear overall solution. I can only think of small improvements for specific cases. We need some design discussions here. - *Dynamic DNS is important* because if it fails (it does) it usually
   blocks Cockpit. Cockpit needs a full DN.

 3. We should (try/aim to) provide *self-hosted web clients* for
IRC/quassel, mumble, etc.
     Some don't even exist. We should ask for them upstream or in
privacy-centric forums.

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