Perhaps an even better example is *emergence*. As Nick's reading group is in the process of finding out, there have been (and in some circles still are) lots of often incompatible and virtually meaningless definitions of that term . But we didn't give up and it, and we now know what it means -- or what we should use it to mean. What had been a mystery has been solved.
-- Russ_A On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:16 AM, Russ Abbott <[email protected]> wrote: > I didn't say I had a definition. In fact, I said that I was having a very > hard time putting words to it. But does that mean that one should give up on > it? We can't do much with consciousness (or the term I prefer, subjective > experience) either, but I'm not willing to dismiss it as virtually > meaningless. > > Please remember that my participation in the discussion came after Eric, > Miles, and Glen [one 'n'], seemed very dismissive of reality. That seemed > quite strange to me. Our current inability to get our arms/head/words around > something isn't automatically grounds to dismiss it. Most of what we have > figured out about the world started out as very poorly formulated. > > -- Russ_A > > > > > On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:14 AM, russell standish <[email protected] > > wrote: > >> You tell me. Just what is the notion? Reality could mean: >> >> 1) What kicks back. Johnson's stone, or Doug's hammered thumb >> 2) Elementary particles >> 3) Force Fields >> 4) A universal dovetailer (Schmidhuber's Great Programmer) >> 5) Platonia of mathematical forms >> 6) Kant's noumenon >> 7) Standish's Nothing (aka Library of Babel) >> 8) Real in the sense I am real (RITSIAR) >> ... >> >> >> and that's just what I pulled out of my head in a brief moment. The >> ... indicates that there are many, many, more subtle variants. Most of >> these versions of reality are incompatible with each other. >> >> The truth is that the word reality has been debased so much it is >> virtually meaningless, unless very carefully qualified. >> >> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 09:55:10PM -0700, Russ Abbott wrote: >> > Just because someone uses a word nonsensically, does that make the word >> > nonsense? >> > >> > I still don't get it. Why are so many people so anxious to dismiss the >> word >> > *reality *-- and with it the corresponding notion? >> > >> > -- Russ_A >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:38 PM, russell standish < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > > On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 06:36:18PM -0700, Russ Abbott wrote: >> > > > >> > > > And it has nothing to do with whether there is a God. I don't >> understand >> > > the >> > > > connection. Reality is. (That's the end of the previous sentence.) >> God, >> > > if >> > > > there is any such thing, is by definition outside the realm of what >> is. >> > > And >> > > > I say that because those who believe in God -- at least those who >> are >> > > > sophisticated about it -- are very careful to keep God away from any >> sort >> > > of >> > > > empirical investigation or verification. >> > > > >> > > > -- RussA >> > > > >> > > >> > > The only connection is analogical. There's probably almost as many >> > > conceptions of god as there are people on the planet. Similarly, there >> > > seems to be about as many conceptions of reality. Consequently, both >> > > terms are really superfluous to doing science. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >> > > Mathematics >> > > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [email protected] >> > > Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > >> >> > ============================================================ >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> -- >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >> Mathematics >> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [email protected] >> Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >
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