Your comments struck me as quite profound, The brutality seen in these civilizations is a manifestation of the instability of the ruling powers. Powers that are confident do not resort to such extravagant efforts, those that are unsure(paranoid) are going to use as much horror to intimidate as possible. The scale of the horror is simply a derivative of the available resources. The essential significance is that human beings resort to terror tactics when they feel threatened in some manner. It is the natural response of a frightened human being to externalize their fear with grotesque displays.
We are a little backward in evaluating a society by the quantity of heads on display we should be looking for societies that do not display their fear so prominently. On the other hand what is it about society that makes its lkeaders os paranoid that they engage in this display. Do civilization and horror go hand in hand? Some how the Idyllic nonchalant Dwarves of Tolkien, do not seem capable of such dramatic displays. Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same grandiosity applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses. The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization. Our need for Theatre creates civilization, not efficiency. I always wondered why the apparently sensible Romans wasted so much on Spectacles. At one time in London people paid for seats at public executions. Ticket scalpers made a good shilling out of famous executions. Not long afterwards we saw human society supply the appetite for blood with motion pictures. Hitler saw himself as a Grand Architect as well as the savior of his nation. I think Napoleon laughed when someone suggested the English might step in and defeat his ambitions and he remarked derisively " Not the English , they are just a nation of little shopkeepers" I probably screwed that up perhaps someone will correct me. Perhaps the need for gods was simply an extension of this basic need for Human Beings to be awed before they would pay attention and give respect to leaders. "If it can't hurt you then you don't have to pay attention" So the psychopaths in charge know that the only thing subjects notice is a lot of bright Red Blood events. Those psychopaths seemed to understand human nature better than most psychologists considering the success record. If this were a system of agents then this would appear to be situation where a single agent discovers a method whereby it can get the absolute attention of all other agents by employing some low level attention activating signal. Perhaps releasing Histamine into the cellular environment or the smell of blood in a wolf pack are equivalent. Once you have everybody's attention what you do next is probably based on the ethics of the culture. If brutality is a sign of psychological distress in the ruling elites one would suspect Brutality to increase as a defeat nears, on the other hand if Brutality is simply an attention focusing device then Blood circuses should preceed expansion phases of the society. Any comments out there, perhaps I have already heard the answer, Hitler accelerated the brutality but in secret, the Mayans, Romans, and Aztecs made it quite public so the distinguishing feature is the degree of publicity, perhaps? This adds another aspect to the thread, the public brutality was in some way much less than the secret Brutality of Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot (Khmer Rouge) Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology) 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA R2J 3R2 (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax vbur...@shaw.ca -----Original Message----- From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm Sent: April 28, 2010 3:30 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn In the book "The ancient Maya" from Robert Sharer he says "before we decry practices such as human sacrifice, we should remember that Europeans of 500 years ago burned people alive in the name of religion and submitted 'heretics' to an array of tortures and protracted executions" I wonder why civilization and barbarism go often hand in hand? The Romans for example were very civilized, but also very brutal. It seems as if a system becomes especially brutal if it's existence in threatened (the church by heretics in the Middle Ages which lead to inquisition, the Romans by insurgents which lead to crucification, the Nazis in WWII..) The concentration camps of the Nazis turned into real death factories when the existence of the Nazi regime was threatened towards the end of the war. Maybe this is the reason why the Aztecs - who were even worse than the Maya when it comes to human sacrifices - developed a high culture (including hieroglyphic writing systems and elaborate temples) and yet drowned in all the blood.. Because a small number of tyrannic rulers knew their existence was questionable and threatened.. -J. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky" <vbur...@shaw.ca> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" <friam@redfish.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:08 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn > My my how elitist we are discussing the brutalities of vanished > civilizations. Those ancient butchers were so grotesque they did each > murder > one at a time. Just imagine the effort involved, each methodical death > blow > by death blow. Such brutes, in retrospect. They must have had tag teams of > executioners on high holidays switching arms as they grew weary. They > probably had a drum roll to accompany the changing of the Blades. I can > just > see the flint knappers running up the stairs with arm loads of replacement > inserts. Quick quick snap to it boys there is a rhythm to maintain for > these > special ceremonies. > > Only an academic can think to disregard the recent activities on the news > and Just 70 years ago, Katyn. ( I was told it took teams of machine > gunners > all day to dispatch and fill the pits. They did not even have time to > remove > the wallets and personal items. A rush job.) > > Was I mistaken did I hear of seven heads delivered by the Taliban only > yesterday. And modern Mexicans are every bit as inventive as their distant > ancestors. Do you think they used electric saws for seven heads or did > they > still use flint maces? > > Lets tsk, tsk all those brutal Mesoamericans. And the death toll from > white > diseases in North America has anyone ever come up with realistic numbers. > > Tsk tsk, I defy any archeologist to turn up anything like Auscwitz or > Katyn > Civilization is organized and focused brutality. We have just become > better > at it none of us would waste so much effort for so few heads. > > What is remarkable is not the head count but the incredibly inefficient > ritualized waste of resources these people conducted. We have surpassed > them > in every measurable manner and we don't even leave evidence behind to > implicate us anymore. Katyn was a sloppy job. > > > > Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky > Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology) > > 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. > Winnipeg, Manitoba > CANADA R2J 3R2 > (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax > vbur...@shaw.ca > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
