Steve, There is a basic cybernetic solution. Pump the output of the smokestacks into the mill-owner's aircirculation system. Internalize all externalities. Either the rich people stop polluting or they die. Either way, the problem of pollution is solved. Also the guilt problem. Oh, and I do realize that we are among the rich people. Nick
From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:18 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] toxins from magnets McAfee SiteAdvisor Warning This e-mail message contains potentially unsafe links to these sites: <http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/friam.org?pip=false&premium=true&client_ui d=1064314504&client_ver=3.3.0.176&client_type=IEPlugin&suite=true&aff_id=0&l ocale=en_us&os_ver=6.1.0.0> friam.org Peggy - You ask: I wondered if any of you know of a way to keep magnet production from producing enormous toxin byproducts. Turns out magnets are needed for large wind turbines that Britain is building, and China makes the magnets cause has the metals for doing so. But result is huge pollution. I am trying to find if there is any knowledge about way to make the magnets without it being so toxic in effect? I think the problem is fundamentally the same problem we always face with our globalism. We don't (can't?) know the consequences of our actions/desires/market-demands and we often don't want to. Wind turbines needn't necessarily use as many or as strong of magnets as they do, but would most likely suffer in efficiency/production. There are alternative magnet technologies to those that require neodymium, but probably at one kind of cost or another. There are surely less toxic methods for mining/extraction of neodymium than the ones being used in Mongolia... etc. etc.... But our rush to specific goals (in this case, "green" power) creates demands for things we might not really want. We not only export our pollution, we export our guilt. It is all connected, and once again, we conspire with ourselves to avoid those connections. I think it is almost axiomatic that the answer to your question is "YES!, there are always ways to reduce toxic byproducts", but the real question is "how much MORE are we willing to pay for how much reduction?" If we were willing to pay double for the magnets, contingent on some specific level of reduction in toxic byproducts, we could surely have them. But then we'd surely be supporting "yet another" ineffeciency or abuse, or ... Surely the turbine manufacturers have already done the math, the research... they know where else to get magnets at a higher price with lower ecological impacts... but how do we tell them we want that? And do we want that? I think *I* do. On the other hand, I admit to wincing and whining every time I look at my electric bill... "why does it have to be sooo expensive?" instead of... "wow! I wonder what rivers had to be dammed, what high-sulfur coal plants had to be fired, what nuclear risks had to be taken, what pollution in Mongolia had to be exported for me to get as much power as I feel like using at such a low price?" Of course not, I just want to know where the "rest of my free lunch" is, I just want to resent those who got me the first half of my free lunch and ignore the implications of my wanting it. I'm heartened when I read stories like this... but sadly, I think the only solution is for us to pay more for what we want to. We want to have our cake and eat it too. We want there to be funding to research better/cheaper/less-polluting solutions, but we don't want to pay for it. Right now, a great deal of the renewable/green sources of energy costs more in our artificial economy... this exporting of pollution to Mongolia from Britain (and the rest of the first world) is one of the hidden prices of our desire for ubiquitous and inexpensive (and now "green") energy. I feel fortunate to get my electricity from a co-op which I can vote (or even run) on board members who call the shots. I also feel fortunate to live in a climate where I can heat my home by direct solar gain and wood. I use more electricity than I need to, and I wince a little every time I hear of something like this... and I might even turn off a light bulb or change tactics to reduce my "parasitic loads". My Co-op speaks of "green tags" (eh?) and they have a program for members (customers) to pay a (small?) premium for more renewable power. I don't know if these "tags" or if the "premium" takes into account Neodymium mining pollution. I don't know if they people I can ask know... but thanks to you Peggy, I think I will go sign up for the premium "green" energy, and at least ask the question, offer to pay a slightly higher premium if they can find a less toxic solution to neodymium magnets, or ones from Mongolia or ...? Not sure... but there is always a carpet where we sweep the details we don't want to think about. http://www.tristategt.org/greenpower/ is a link to the source of the "green" power my co-op uses. - Steve Here is link to the article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1350811/In-China-true-cost-B ritains-clean-green-wind-power-experiment-Pollution-disastrous-scale.html Peggy Miller -- Peggy Miller, owner/OEO Highland Winds wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell) Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop) Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
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============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
